r/vegan 7d ago

An open letter to the r/vegan mods

https://i.redd.it/2r3x7w3dn5j61.jpg
19k Upvotes

u/blufair anti-speciesist 7d ago

Removing and locking. Initially we kept the thread open despite the brigading from non-vegans because OP's point is valid and they're free to appeal to the community about effective forms of outreach. But we've long since passed the point where anything productive can come from this.

Copying my earlier response, because it got lost in the flood of r/all comments:

We have civility rules, which we do enforce. Comments containing bigotry, severe personal attacks, or glorifying death/violence are removed, as is any evidence of stalking or targeting specific users across threads. /r/vegan is a general sub that's meant to provide a community for vegans, as opposed to a sub specifically catered to recruiting new vegans. That means this sub allows a variety of viewpoints to be expressed, some of which are good PR and some which probably aren't. Ultimately, as long as members aren't violating the civility rules they're allowed to say what they want to omnivores. That includes pointing out that people who continue to consume animal products are causing animals to be abused and murdered.

That being said, we don't catch every instance of rule violations. You can help by reporting them when you see them.

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u/joaquinsquareenix 7d ago

For another perspective, I'm Korean, and I've never seen anyone from the US be kind to people who support the dog meat industry. They're right to be so averse to the practice.

"I only eat dog meat sometimes" wouldn't placate any of you complaining about the vegans.

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u/dankchristianmemer3 7d ago

brilliant comment

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u/tcreeps 7d ago

Every day, I'm surrounded by people who don't give a shit about animals. I'm surrounded by people who are hypocritical in their beliefs about justice and untroubled by the suffering in which they indulge. Can we NOT make this a comfortable space for the discussion of animal abuse? Can we at least speak the truth here? Purposefully hurting animals is fucking unacceptable. It was the repetition of this fact that made me vegan. It wasn't the people who said that tRyInG mY bEsT was "good enough."

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u/m3r3d1th_ 7d ago

Fuck the meat eaters and fuck the animal torturers

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u/vanillust 7d ago

17k likes from non vegans on this subreddit.

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

I wish we would block ourselves from popular

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u/dankchristianmemer3 7d ago

This thread is an omni invasion.

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u/mccoolerthanyou2 7d ago

r/vegan is always an omni/apologist invasion

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u/JuggernautMoose 7d ago

I think this should only apply to people who are actually making an effort to transition to a cruelty free lifestyle.

If meat eaters want to post about their 1 plant based meal of the week just for praise, I don't really care if people rip them apart in the comments.

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u/dankchristianmemer3 7d ago

Isn't in crazy that some people can't imagine not eating meat literally 2-3 times a day?

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u/Yonsi abolitionist 7d ago

The fundamental divide here is there are some vegans that treat veganism as a lifestyle preference/slightly better way of living while others treat it as a social & political movement. Speaking on behalf of the latter, this is why you so often see veganism being compared to slavery/civil rights. When looked at it in this light, it's not hard to see why vegans become so passionate about the animals (the victims) and aren't willing to accept half measures. No social movement ever coddled who they saw as the oppressors.

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u/gglugg 7d ago

I don't think that's the same line dividing veganism that OP is mentioning. Personally, I'm very much on the ethical/political side of veganism (to the point that I think that promoting a vegan diet as healthy is actually harming the movement). But I'm still very much of the opinion that we should not tell people off for still eating meat when they come here excitedly with a vegan meal they created. (Same thing in real life / outwith reddit.)

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u/LookAtMeNow247 7d ago

In any political or ethical movement, It's necessary to convert people.

That means, there will be people who are currently doing/supporting the exact thing that the movement is against but we needs those people to join in.

It's so basic but it's of the utmost importance to create a welcoming path towards conversion and acceptance into the community.

The success of the movement is depends upon building it up.

It might seem counter-intuitive but demonizing people who are not in the community is polarizing and counter-productive.

So, strategically, with veganism, the attitude/message can't be an attack on meat eaters. Those people are future vegans. The message needs to be a positive one about the environment, animal rights, and health.

Even building infrastructure in restaurants that aren't vegan and respect for veganism in people who aren't vegan, that's huge progress.

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u/mattiesab 7d ago

Compassion is necessary to convert people

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u/LookAtMeNow247 7d ago

Exactly. The basic argument needs to be:

"We care about you. Here's why our way will improve your life and your world."

People are afraid of change. Institutions are built against change, even if it is positive change.

People struggling with fears and barriers need empathy. The barriers should be a target, not those struggling with them.

It's so easy to paint someone as ignorant or "less than." Much harder to sympathize with someone who's not there yet and help them get there.

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u/thereasonforhate 7d ago edited 7d ago

Except, I don't think anyone would tell someone off for posting a Vegan meal. It's when they start trying to justify eating meat that they get piled on.

Should they get piled on, probably not, but it's like walking into a clubhouse for Rugby players and claiming Rugby isn't as great as football. Should they get piled on, not really, but they will because they just walked into a swarm of rugby players and insulted them.

"But they aren't insulting Veganism!" - If you're still torturing and abusing animals and you're going to go into /r/vegan to try and justify it, yeah, it's a little insulting. Not to me or Veganism, but to the animals you're torturing and abusing. If you want to debate, there's /r/DebateAVegan. it's literally the point of that subreddit. If you want to talk about a diet, /r/PlantBasedDiet is right there. If you want to talk about how it's cool to abuse animals /r/exvegan is thataway.

These threads get thrown up a lot here, and my opinion is /r/vegan needs to decide what it is. Is it a sub for helping non-vegans become vegan, or is it a place for Vegans to feel safe discussing the horrors of animal abuse away from those who take part in it? It can be both, but it will conflict with each other a lot.

It's the same problem /r/atheism had, they were trying to hold debates, memes, and jokes, while also pretending to be welcoming to other ideas. When they started hitting Front Page regularly the debate was "remove themselves from font page" or "split the sub". Pretty sure they split the sub and removed memes and such and became "news" and discussion focused. Maybe it would be good for /r/vegan too. Edit: Personally I like /r/vegan as it is as there are lots of other subs for sharing Vegan food or talking about how you've cut back on torturing animals once a week. I like having a place I can go where I can say "animal torture is wrong" and not get piled on by a bunch of animal abusers. But I guess we'll always have /r/vegancirclejerk...

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u/gglugg 7d ago

100% agree with you that people should be criticised harshly for trying to justify eating meat on this subreddit. I don't think I gave any argument to the contrary, and I don't think OP did.

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u/thereasonforhate 7d ago

I think we're agreeing, I just wasn't sure why "we should not tell people off for still eating meat" gets brought up every time. I can't think of anytime I've seen someone being told off for simply posting a vegan recipe here.

But either way, I agree people should be welcoming to a point, so I think we're basically agreeing anyway. :)

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u/Ikhlas37 7d ago

This is correct BUT it's the masses that make change. For every half as vegan that's dabbling in it, is profit for big business to make real fundamental changes. Just look at the supermarkets now compared to before. That's not because of diehard vegans (although they've certainly done a lot to earn praise) but it's all the supermarket mums that are thinking "oh I'd like to try a bit of that vegan thing"

My point is, you can't make the real fundamental changes by taking huge steps which only the "real" vegans will do. You need the masses to slowly turn the tide.

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u/Geschak 7d ago

I'm all for being open for newcomers, but can we please stop with these whole "gatekeeping" accusations? It's not gatekeeping to say animal products like honey are not vegan. I'm happy to help vegan-curious people but it's so frigging annoying when they try to appropriate veganism by starting to refer to animal-products or animal-based diets as vegan.

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u/somewhat_funny 7d ago

There's already r/vegetarian for back-patting omnis. Lets keep the vegan subs vegan. I can understand more tolerance over here than r/Vegancirclejerk but sometimes it feels like half the people on r/vegan are visitors who pretend to be vegan without changing themselves or have any intentions to. If you ask for help or pointers I'll gladly give it, but dont come here looking for praise that you didnt eat cheese once

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u/viciousonaleash 7d ago

That’s why I left the vegan sub. It was bloated with backs needing to be patted. I stick to vegan recipes and vegan gif recipes subs because that’s what I’m most interested in. From time to time people post asking questions about meal prep, subs, and cooking tips which means they are wanting help and not a pat on the back.

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u/NutNougatCream 7d ago

Though this is true, reactions like that did push me to go 100% vegan instead of only eating plant-based at home.

It is not always aggressive, but simply people very passionate about saving animal lives. Ofcourse it is good that someone shows interest, and we should be positive about that.

I do believe we need to have reactions like "Take it to the next level for all of these reasons, go vegan". If not, we would be hypocrits for accepting 'a bit of violence and death'.

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u/mushleap 7d ago edited 7d ago

I agree, it's only because of the hostility of people over on r/vegancirclejerk that made finally go vegan because I finally realised that being a vegetarian was a wusses way out, basically

edit; has this post made it to r/all or something? getting a lot more angry responses to this post than I was earlier, clearly from non vegans lol

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago

That sub made me finally decide to go vegan after being vegetarian for 5 years. So yeah the hostile approach can work

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u/Harmonex vegan SJW 7d ago

I think part of it is because you're roleplaying against the "bad" vegans and say something like "Hehe I bet they eat honey" and then after a few shitposts you're like "But do I really even need to keep eating honey?"

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u/Dollar23 vegan newbie 7d ago

Dandelion honey ftw.

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u/Harmonex vegan SJW 7d ago

Yet another reason to start looking for dandelions.

When I was a child, there were so many patches of those in my trailer park that we'd pick for fun, never realizing that they were not only a source of free food, but actual treats. As an adult, I haven't seen a good patch of them lying around. I might have to grow my own.

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u/IAmATroyMcClure 7d ago edited 7d ago

This. I think no matter what "method" you go with, self-awareness is the most important part of actually getting through to omnis.

I personally have found the most success getting people interested in veganism by being a super lowkey vegan who breaks stereotypes. I like to just subtly drop it on people weeks or months after they've gotten to know me, usually followed by a comment like "yeah I try not to be obnoxious about it." Almost every time, the reaction is met with pleasant surprise and positive curiosity (as opposed to the defensive/angry pushback you get with a more confrontational approach).

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u/haveitoldyou-imVEGAN 7d ago

Yup that sub is incredible, got me from vegetarian to vegan almost overnight after I found it

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u/Organic_Ema 7d ago

Vcj is the most savage place on the internet 🤣

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u/Count5or6 veganarchist 7d ago

Worked for me. If /r/vegan had just told me I was doing a great job being vegetarian, nothing would've changed.

But I saw people on there saying vegetarianism isn't good enough. And they were correct.

Vegan btw

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u/YouDumbZombie 7d ago

It's the only true general vegan sub imho, no bullshit or tip toeing around issues.

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u/Synephos 7d ago

No need for tiptoeing when vegan superpowers let you fly.

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u/letsgogirlls 7d ago

Vegan btw

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u/scubawankenobi vegan 7d ago

Vcj

It's the only true general vegan sub imho, no bullshit or tip toeing around issues.

Amen - Preach it!

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u/BumbleTrouble vegan 7d ago

May I introduce you to r/veganforcirclejerkers?

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u/Artezza 7d ago

I feel like people always bring that up as being even harsher than vcj, but really it's a lot more moderate since it's based much more on discussion than just memes like vcj

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u/mushleap 7d ago

certainly does the job though!

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u/gswon 7d ago

... Except for all of the places that normalize the abuse, rape and murder of animals?

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u/KeithFromAccounting 7d ago

Same. This motherfuckers shamed me, and it worked because, when confronted by shame, you either double down or you change.

I’d imagine that virtually all vegans are people who chose to change when confronted by shame, rather than stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that nothing was going on.

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u/Gabsyee vegan 5+ years 7d ago

This makes me extremely happy. Welcome on the actual animal lovers wagon 🥰😍

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u/shibuyacrow 7d ago

K I went and looked at r/vegancirclejerk and I feel like I figured out what the differences are.

Here, in these comments and responses and agression towards newbies we're talking about is personal. They're direct, at the commentor..and that's off putting and discouraging. But reading through vegancirclejerk is disconnected. It's not personal. It's making valid points out there at someone else, which makes the points easier to absorb and agree with.

I dont think I've seen one comment where someone says they went vegan because they were lashed at and called out in an aggressive fashion; but there's lots of accounts of going vegan because of seeing it/similar points directed at someone else.

I there conclude: going full vegan is of course the more ethical of all. To get the individual you're responding to, trying to convince, to veganism, if you're dealing with them directly you're more likely to keep them around them with kindness... step 2 is collectively gather and laugh and point at faceless screen caps.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/Long-Rule3446 7d ago

Re read the thread. There is many post saying direct hostility from vegan circle jerk is the reason they converted.

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u/rainbowcouscous Anti-speciesist for Total Liberation! 7d ago

Yeah, if it weren’t for my comrades on r/vegancirclejerk I would still be a half-assed plant-based ignorant scum. I needed to see r/vcj to be called out and bluntly and unapologetically educated about animal rights.

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u/mushleap 7d ago

exactly! the 'kind' vegan approach of 'oh do it in baby steps!!! drop one animal product at a time ' did not work for me, because then I found myself comfortably not wanting to move on from those baby steps and no one was pushing me to.

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u/fishbedc vegan 5+ years 7d ago edited 7d ago

I fannied around for twenty years as a cheesebreather until the original r/vegan, before it turned into mush, firmly kicked my arse. Twenty fucking wasted years.

7 years vegan BTW. Could have been 27.

And it has been great to see this sub grow so huge in that time, but boy has it turned into a people-pleasing heap of warm goo in the process. I don't come round here that often these days, r/vcj and r/veganforcirclejerkers feel much more committed to actually changing things.

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u/deep_faked_beans 7d ago

Yeah, I think vcj is good for people who are pretty much vegan and need a final push. They already agree with the vegan philosophy so vjc isn't so jarring to read. But for people just starting out, I don't think hostility is the best approach, like I don't think they're ready for it yet if that makes sense.

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u/Dollar23 vegan newbie 7d ago

Same here, was omni, discovered vegan, then vegancirclejerk and went vegan myself because what i saw just made sense.

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u/DemoniteBL 7d ago

VCJ turned me from omni to vegan personally.

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u/enki1337 7d ago

I think it can also be good to go there when you're an interested omni or vegetarian precisely because of how jarring it is, so long as you've got fairly thick skin.

My first time on there made me angry that these people were in there making all sorts of jokes at my expense. Eventually I had to confront that anger, and realize the one I was angry with was myself, because I wasn't doing enough.

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u/scubawankenobi vegan 7d ago

r/vegancirclejerk

That sub saved my sanity after encountering so many "baby steps", "rapeless Mondays", "little murder is ok" that is often promoted here (as in the letter to mods by OP).

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u/postmodern_werewolf vegan 4+ years 7d ago

Agreed 100%. I was vegetarian and pescetarian for ages and listening to Vegan Freak Radio and their steadfast pounding of veganism. being. the. only. way. is what got through to me, not handholding. Abolition for life.

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u/cali995 7d ago

I think different people respond to different methods.

If it worked for you, great but its not a one size fits all thing

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u/PrivilegedPatriarchy 7d ago

I think your nuanced take needs to be more popular. For some people, being aggressive will totally turn them off. For some people, being coddling will get them nowhere. I think we shouldn’t focus too much on being 100% coddling or 100% aggressive; we should use a variety of methods, based on our best guess at what will work for a person, cross our fingers, and hope it works. Unless if someone presents evidence that one method or the other is significantly more reliable at helping someone go vegan, I think that’s our best bet.

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u/GateauBaker 7d ago

Lol are you serious? To a vegan that's like saying "Look I only kill on Wednesdays! I tried not killing the other day and I enjoyed it! Why are you attacking me?!"

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u/BeanTime2015 vegan 7d ago

people are obsessed with policing other people's activism.

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u/Shaolinmonkey11 7d ago

Vegans who want to convince people to go vegan by showing them "tasty food" just don't get that even if our food was horrible, we would still have a moral obligation to be vegan because taste should not be more important than life. As simple as that.

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u/HchrisH animal sanctuary/rescuer 7d ago

I think it's hilarious how often we get both posts just like this one, and the exact opposite complaining that the sub is too open to omnis and too eager to praise "meatless Mondays" or other baby steps.

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u/PoplarRiver vegan 7d ago

Send them to r/plantbaseddiet

A separate subreddit exists for people who aren’t vegan but eat plant based... almost like we should add it to the info page to help redirect those who are confused.

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago edited 7d ago

Came back to browse this by new and the first 3 comments I saw, 2 said they eat beef and 1 called vegans psychopaths. Maybe that's why people are sick of being nice

*edit several hours later again: every time a thread hits r/all from here there ends up being more non vegans shitting on us than actual vegans. And if you look through most of the comments, very few are genuinely interested. If anyone would like help being vegan feel free to pm me and I will tell you what has worked for me. I will also admit I was vegetarian for years before I went vegan. If you're here to tell me that you just had a burger or that humans are meant to eat meat or that you eat ethically murdered animals then you can not bother

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u/dankchristianmemer3 7d ago

Now that this post has reached r/all its being flooded by omnis.

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u/elzibet plant powered athlete 7d ago

Plus this is a space for vegans to speak out against animal cruelty and as long as they don’t call for violence I truly believe all forms of activism are needed. What doesn’t work for one reading the comments, might work for another.

Doing the right thing shouldn’t stop at someone being mean to you in irl or online. I understand OP’s concerns even if I disagree as I find it necessary. Like others someone not babying me for killing a few less animals was actually really helpful in me becoming vegan.

Some need to be coddled and that’s why all forms are needed and we need to stop telling each other “no THIS is how you talk about Veganism”

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u/AcrobaticMonth7 7d ago edited 7d ago

This might be a hot take but I feel like if you stop feeling bothered by people eating meat it's time to rewatch Dominion or Earthlings.

I can't believe I am seeing vegans here arguing that other vegans act out of moral superiority... No. Loud vegans are people who can't bear looking at the violence that millions of animals have to endure every day. Maybe you have forgotten what that frustration feels like.

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u/landt2_ 7d ago

YES

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u/veganactivismbot 7d ago

Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" (an updated version of Earthlings) for free on youtube by clicking here! Interested in going Vegan? Take the 30 day challenge!

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u/Osirisavior vegan 3+ years 7d ago

The problem with Baby Steps is they can be infinite.

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u/Please151 7d ago

And a problem with cheering it on is that some people will become content with the amount of praise they got and truly think their eating habits are completely moral now.

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u/pigeon-bird 7d ago

I think there’s a vicious cycle. Omnis openly disrespect vegans on pretty much every sub, so when omnis come to this sub, even with pure intentions, it isn’t exactly a warm reception. It also feels like an invasion of the community. The sub itself exists as a resource with flairs and recipes and tips, etc. so posting to explicitly tell about a “surprisingly good” vegan experience they had seems unnecessary.

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u/SleepyBronto 7d ago

Another point to make is that its so easy to be fully vegan. Me and my mom went vegan just over two weeks ago and all we had to do is get a vegan cookbook and buy vegetables, rice, pasta, spices ect. Its cheap and easy so when someone tells vegans they had one vegan meal and wants praise for it it's a bit ridiculous. Baby steps are for babies not grown adults who do their own food shopping. If its a teenager who still relies on their parents to buy their food then yeah fair enough but thats usually not the case. This is a subreddit for vegans not for people who had salad for lunch.

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u/adenoidhynkell 7d ago

Lmao “a subreddit for vegans not for people who had salad for lunch” I’m dying

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u/WeHaSaulFan vegan 3+ years 7d ago edited 7d ago

Is it not generally a good approach to assume best intentions until proven otherwise? One person’s “invasion of the community“ is another person’s “welcome growth in the movement.” We want converts, no?

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u/jaseysucks 7d ago

I totally sympathize with people who feel like this space is being invaded, but I think you’re right on the money with this. It’s hard when you look at what the omnis are doing - murdering innocent creatures - and still have enough sympathy and understanding to welcome them in to our community but honestly I think people benefit more from education than harassment.

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u/fiercelittlebird 7d ago

Here's another thought. Most of the people here were not vegan growing up. A lot didn't go vegan overnight. If you want to be really pedantic about it you could argue there's blood on everyone's hands. But we don't do that because we've all taken steps to improve ourselves. So it's ultimately a good thing to applaud someone's effort to do better.

Of course we should also teach and encourage them to go all the way to veganism. But tearing someone a new one for showing interest in veganism but not quite there yet will be counterproductive in a lot of cases. So I'd rather convince 100 people to become vegan within a few weeks/months than just one person within a day.

Realistically most people don't go vegan overnight. I didn't. Do I feel bad in hindsight? Yeah. I'm still happy to be here, though.

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u/Impeachesmint 7d ago edited 7d ago

Also... fuck celebrations of mediocrity. Oh, you ate a vegan burrito once and you came here looking for a fucking cookie and attention like a toddler.

It’s not an interesting or informative post...

Actual decent questions that couldn’t just be googled or answered in the sidebar, or signs of actual progress (ie, NOT one meal or one day)... fine. But people looking for head pats are annoying.

/u/Stupidllama. - nice try, shitbird, scrolled back far for to find something that is NOT an example of that at all. Failed assignment. Impotent little neckbeard.

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u/Curates 7d ago

Veganism is not a lifestyle choice, like going on the keto diet or whatever. Animal rights is a substantive political movement akin to human or civl rights. Half measures are not only uncalled for, they actively dilute the messaging that this is a serious and uncompromising call for radical change. The end goal is abolishing animal agriculture. That's the whole, entire point. It's not about what food you like to eat. It's about not torturing animals to death. Instead of worrying about offending people, we should be worried that vegans are not nearly militant enough.

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u/BeanTime2015 vegan 7d ago

this!!! omnis ask if i'm ok with them eating chicken and when i say no, they call me a mean militant vegan. it's ridiculous the amount of coddling grown adults come looking for on this sub.

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u/consistentContent 7d ago

To be fair, it's the same with racism/sexism/etc. Every person has their own journey and wants every step they make celebrated. And that's fine - your friends who are a step or two ahead or behind can celebrate you, but asking lifelong vegans to celebrate your meatless burrito is like asking a civil rights organizer to celebrate that you stopped using the n word. That's a good thing. You're on the path. But they're exhausted guiding people through this and especially in black spaces, you will kot get a good reception. You can brag about your meatless burrito on r/foodporn or whatever.

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u/MammothCavebear 7d ago

Most omnis on here truly have zero interest in change and just want to tell us about the flesh they consume. They don’t need me to explain for the 47th time why eggs aren’t good. It’s easy to look up.

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u/Mentalistus vegan 4+ years 7d ago

Yep. This is one of the most upvoted post for a reason. Omnis need to feel better about the horrible, needless things they do.

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u/lookingForPatchie 7d ago

The good old fight between the apologists and the militants, not realizing how we're all fighting for the same thing.

Both ways(militant and apologetic) are important. You guys might not realize it, but we need each other. Militant vegans are important to keep veganism where it is, so it doesn't become a half assed movement without a direction like vegetarism. More and more people become vegan, which can easily lead to alienation. Without the militant vegans this progress of alienation would be much faster. Then again, the available sources we have and the patience comes from apologists. Making veganism easily approachable.

The thing about militant vegans is that there is no doubt that they will always put the animal first. We need people to do that. Because if we don't have them around, we might end up forgetting what we're fighting for.

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u/m0notone vegan 3+ years 7d ago

I truly believe you can be both (militant & "apologist"). I am extremely passionate about veganism, and believe anything but 100% vegan is immoral and hypocritical. At the same time, I recognise that I was not always vegan, and people are literally brainwashed from birth to be carnists...

People take time to make the change, and it has to come from their own choices. Nobody can be forced into it. Providing people with the countless reasons for Veganism and being politely unapologetic is the way forward.

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u/StumbleQ vegan 7d ago

Apologist irl and militant online is my balance.

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u/Cutsman4057 7d ago

This is the way

Its a lot more productive to encourage "baby steps" in person, and lead the conversation to the more 'militant' points of veganism. I've done this so many times, my job has me talking to people every day and its soooo easy to sprinkle my militant vegan ideals into conversation in person versus online.

Online you can be a snarky asshole, especially in dedicated vegan spaces. No reservations.

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u/Lawdball 7d ago

I agree. Some people respond more to positive feedback and resources, others need a shake on what is actually wrong.

I like that we have both in this community.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 7d ago

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u/Kappappaya 7d ago edited 7d ago

I'm not going to be compassionate with someone who chooses not to be compassionate themselves.

What the fuck?!

I will calmly explain them why I believe what they do is not justified. There is simply, and I can not overstate this enough, no fucking reason to kill animals for food.

Veganism is not difficult to understand and if you choose to argue for killing animals unnecessarily... I will not be compassionate... This is such an obvious sentence that it's sad I feel the need to write it on a vegan sub.

And don't even get me started on "judgemental" or "preachy" vegans. There is no way to tell people they're killing animals unnecessarily without them feeling judged. You can read factual scientific research to them and they will become defensive and claim you're guilt tripping them! By simply suggesting that their choices have consequences they might be opposed to, because everyone is against "animal cruelty". Guilt due to vegans existing is not a vegans responsibility.

Yes, most vegans aren't born into it, many people might need some time to adjust. But what I think is stopping people isn't some unsolvable issue. It's that they actually don't really care. If they did, a tiny bit of effort wouldn't be too much for them. I changed over a couple of weeks and that was it. For the vast majority of people it wouldn't be complicated

edit:

There is no way to tell people they're killing animals unnecessarily without them *feeling judged. You can read factual scientific research to them and they will become defensive and claim you're guilt tripping them!*

you can see an example of what I said below :)

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u/OrgasmInTechnicolor 7d ago

Why would I be interested in someone eating a vegan burrito? I have mostly no problems with a carnist asking questions in good faith, but someone saying "i eat vegan sometimes" is totally pointless to me. Its all about them seeking someone to pat them on the head for doing less than they themselves think they should.

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u/AestheticMigration 7d ago

licking the boots of animal abusers isn’t vegan. Neither is honey, backyard eggs or wool.

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u/mavrick454 abolitionist 7d ago

but surely we can just be nice to the animal abusers, right?

maybe if we hold their hands and tell them "its ok, you're doing the best you can do", they will see our way is correct.

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u/DivineandDeadlyAngel anti-speciesist 7d ago

Oh my god. Why is this getting upvoted? This is ridiculous. This sub is getting soft, can't even advocate for animals without being accused of being mean...

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u/singleuseredditacct 7d ago

Right this is pathetic, and apparently OP had a tantrum and accused VCJ of brigading when this shit made it to r/all. The dishonesty is palpable.

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago

Ironically the people coming in from r/all are proving the opposite point as OP, there's so many comments calling us morons, assholes, unhealthy etc that it's pretty obvious why we're wary of outsiders

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

Lmao fr

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u/jhd2424 7d ago

I see this sub as a place for vegans. Those interested in becoming vegan can of course come to explore and ask questions but there a distinction between non-vegan posts. There are posts like “hey I ate a vegan burrito and it was actually pretty good” or “pretty good vegan burrito.” The first is kind of a backhanded statement. It also seems to be approval seeking because the poster wants us to give praise in the form of fake internet points for the fact that they tried vegan food.

I would also say that being vegan is an ethical worldview. People who are not vegan are actively participating in an act that is absolutely abhorrent in that worldview. It makes is difficult to be kind people come here appearing to want a pat on the back. To me, an “I gave up meat on mondays,” seem to want a positive reaction but I only see the other 6 days where animals are being eaten. That being said, I will absolutely praise someone that comes here to say they just became a vegan or are on x days of their vegan lifestyle. Everyone starts somewhere but this is not a life that you can do in half measures.

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u/dankchristianmemer3 7d ago

> the poster wants us to give praise

Exactly, why do they need to make a post about it?

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u/PoplarRiver vegan 7d ago

There are plant based subs, this is a vegan sub and veganism isn’t just a diet. I will happily be supportive of someone who is looking to adopt the lifestyle and ethics of veganism. This isn’t a place for supporting “meatless Monday” or other plant based choices.

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u/Verygoodnewsprobably 7d ago

It's r/vegan, not r/becomingvegan. Eating meat is basically the opposite of what this community tolerates and that's kind of the point.

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u/Icy_Climate 7d ago

The people you are talking about come here after accidentally buying some vegan ready meal just to grab some karma. They didn't inform themselves and don't plan on changing a bit. If someone shows any kind of effort we should support them, but not those karmawhoring omni trolls.

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u/postmodern_werewolf vegan 4+ years 7d ago edited 7d ago

Do you remember the person who's wife made chocolate chip cookies? I honestly couldn't tell if it was satire

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u/enki1337 7d ago

Got a link? This thread is exhausting and I could use a chuckle.

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u/postmodern_werewolf vegan 4+ years 7d ago

Here you go. I forgot about the peanut butter part lol, I still can't believe it

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u/enki1337 7d ago

ROFL. They didn't even post the recipe. Thanks!

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u/shartbike321 7d ago

Haha, I clicked this and found out I’m 2nd top comment 😂

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u/YouDumbZombie 7d ago

This is a sub for vegans and veganism, many people here don't want to talk about meat and cheese and your baby steps or your meatless Wednesdays etc. This is a space for vegans and veganism so expect that anyone can comment on anything that you post. This sub has always been a lukewarm vegan sub because of mentality like this.

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u/DjWithNoNameYet 7d ago

This post reeks of speciesism. Why can we not defend the animals in our own subreddit?

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u/mavrick454 abolitionist 7d ago

well yah, /u/_mark_davis_ is a triggered snowflake who wants to tone police and neuter us. he'd tut-tut an 1800s abolitionist if they were too provocative in their activism.

he wants us to fight this war with oven mitts on

now lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya - surely this signal of unity will sway the animal abusers.

I mean, they are already here in droves, upvoting this drivil. looking at the comments tells the truth.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

[deleted]

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u/mavrick454 abolitionist 7d ago

right? I feel like im taking crazy pills here.

if we could ask the animals that are on the chopping block, they would say "I dont give two shits about the who/how/why, I dont give two shits about feelings or bullying, I JUST DONT WANT TO DIE! PLEASE!"

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u/aceafabapancake 7d ago

Boo hoo!

We have no fucking time to validate your baby steps. The world is dying. Animals are dying.

Also, there are a number of other subreddits that will compliment you like you just solved world hunger if you post picture of a bean burrito or something. Go there and seek your validation!

We will always support you if you go vegan. But guiding someone throughout their journey while praising them for each step that they follow, it's tiring and frustrating.

Ask us questions, we will answer them. Debate with us with an open mind and we will defend ourselves. Get recommendations from us.

But, don't expect people to praise you for it. If you are doing it for the praises, you might not be going vegan for the right reasons. Intrinsic motivation is what you require most to go vegan. So first work on that and you don't need anyone's praises!

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u/ArielsCrystalJewelry 7d ago

I join vegan communities online to have a safe space to talk with other like minded people. Not to pander to someone still abusing animals. That being said i think there is a productive way to share information without being disrespectful

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u/SharkyJ123 7d ago

It's not abusive to tell people that they should stop exploitating animals right now instead of patting them on the back for a meatless monday.

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u/spikepie 7d ago

Someone pointed out that there is a subreddit r/almostvegan . Maybe that could become a place for those who would like encouragement while transitioning, also til the difference between vegan and plant-based, didn’t realise people were so passionate about it

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u/DuskBlackCat 7d ago

In reality this is basically just an omnivore subreddit at this point.

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u/Madozz_ 7d ago

Nah, they can grow a pair and admit to be hypocritical

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u/plscallmeRain plant-based diet 7d ago edited 7d ago

Disagree. Obviously encouraging omnivores to eat omnivorous diets is not in any way promoting veganism, but, even if it was, I don't want this sub to turn into a space where omnis talk about eating meat. Like, they have the rest of reddit to do that. We have a handful of vegan subs where we don't have to see, talk about, or pretend to tolerate meat. We even label them vegan, so the subs should be vegan.

Also, if your understanding of veganism is so lacking that you're only doing it for the approval of anonymous online posters, you're not going to last anyway.

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u/Shibazuechter 7d ago

On what planet do you live? Seriously, what strange mirror world do you come from? This Sub is Apologist central. If you think this sub is hostile you would have a seizure if you went to /r/vegancirclejerk

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u/rosarioprieto 7d ago

So not only should we congratulate people who are actively exploiting animals and like to think of themselves as good people, but also our comments should be moderated if we tell them the truth? This is a vegan sub, not plant-based or environmentalist.

Vegans should, respectfully, be very clear and blunt about what veganism is. If other people want to advocate, for whatever reason, to 'reduce' animal consumption, cool. But that's not what veganism is.

That said, I've always found this sub extremely welcoming and helpful with meat-eaters who have questions, are curious, or are trying to reduce.

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u/viscountrhirhi vegan 4+ years 7d ago

I have not guided anyone to veganism through guilt and aggression. Everyone I know who has become vegan through me has done it because I was patient, introduced them to delicious food, proved it’s easy, and talked ethics with them without shaming them.

Hell, I have a coworker who is now trying to convince her husband not to eat meat (and who also no longer wants to eat meat) because I linked her to Dominion because she was curious and asked about the ethics because she genuinely didn’t know about ANY of it. She genuinely thought the animals died old and painlessly. Yesterday I linked her to a documentary specifically about the dairy industry because, once again, she didn’t know about any of it. (And she didn’t make it far enough into Dominion to get to that.)

So many people genuinely don’t know and learning can be a huge shock to their system. Some change over night, and others take time to work through all the social and cultural shit, propaganda, and cognitive dissonance. They have to re-learn how they eat. Yes, it’s easy, but so many people who grow up on typical meat heavy western diets don’t know how to balance a meal since everything centers around a main course of a slab of meat with some sides.

In an ideal perfect world, my coworker would make the switch overnight. But I’m just happy she’s genuinely interested, horrified, and is open to knowing about all this stuff, and is now making changes. Seeds are planted, and they are sprouting. That’s how it starts.

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u/Sister-Rhubarb 7d ago

The number of people who genuinely believe cows produce milk all the time and that milking them is actually helping them is unbelievable. People really don't have a clue.

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u/thebrightesttimeline 7d ago

Also plant milks are genuinely tasty!

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u/anonymous-random 7d ago

When no one teaches you as a child, how are you supposed to know? No one tells a child that the cows need to be impregnated to have milk from my experience. I just assumed that it was natural, just how sheep have wool, cows and goats have milk. I got really curious about it but still got vague answers, like cows have milk for quite a long time after having babies and such. I had no idea about the environment the cows live in, I always thought they live free range on a farm. Same with other animals slaughtered for meat, I never looked into it and just ignored it because everyone else ate it. I am sure if my family or friends showed me how it really is, I would have stopped eating meat much sooner. I think it needs to be shown in schools, because even young children have the capability of being compassionate and making the choice for themselves.

When I was young, there weren't any other alternatives for milk. Hell, meat alternatives came to my country a few years ago and cheese alternatives last year. All of these were also very expensive. I am very glad more and more people think what happens before the food gets on their plate and that it's so much easier to be on a vegan diet than it used to, from the grocery stores to restaurants.

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u/spiceonmyspaghetti 7d ago

What documentary on the dairy industry did you recommend?

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u/pawsitivelypowerful vegan 7d ago

I saw this one a few days ago and it was pretty good

It definitely has quite a bit of the "this is the torture animals go through" though so a warning in advance.

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u/veganactivismbot 7d ago

Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" for free on youtube by clicking here! Interested in going Vegan? Take the 30 day challenge!

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u/smstrese 7d ago

Good bot

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u/madetoreportyou 7d ago

It isn't easy. The sooner vegans stop telling everyone it's "easy" the better. For the majority of the population, jt is not easy to completely redefine your eating habits. Regardless of what knowledge you possess.

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u/profoundmuffin 7d ago

This is ALL about ego. Should we make non vegans uncomfortable? Of course we should. Should we be forced to be polite to people engaging in animal cruelty? Of course not. It needs to be said repeatedly and loudly that carnism is brain rot and it always needs to be challenged. Care less about your precious feelings from what some stranger said to you online. Care more about the animals. Take your ego out of the equation.

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u/Aturchomicz 7d ago

Sucking the dick of the opressors, beyond hilarious

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

Based

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u/FranciscoCesar9 7d ago

If people didnt question and pushed me to be a better person because of the harm I was doing, I would still be oblivious. Be pushy. This post is some bullshit.

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

Exactly, r/vegancirclejerk really helped me see that

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u/FranciscoCesar9 7d ago

The true vegan subreddit

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u/askantik vegan 10+ years 7d ago

typical omni: "hello i am omni. i do meatless mondays and only ate meat 6 times this week instead of 7. plz suck me off for my glorious efforts."

vegans: "nah"

typical omni: "omg u guys r so hostile and u hurt my fefes. now i will never go vegan. fuk the animals!"

(The above is partly in jest but also partly not). On a 100% serious note:

If you are at all surprised that vegans, on a vegan subreddit, would take issue with people eating or wearing or otherwise abusing animals, then I'm not sure what you've been smoking.

Let's be honest, it has never really been that difficult for people with access to grocery stores and a tiny bit of willpower to be vegan, especially since the advent of the Internet. But now, it's 2021. It's never been easier to be vegan. Even for those us of who don't live near vegan restaurants, we have access to one zillion recipes, cookbooks, blogs, insanely talented YouTubers, and we can buy vegan sausages/nuggets/burgers/ice cream/dairy products (including actual dairy that is animal-free), etc.

I'm truly sorry if someone was rude to you. But at the same time, some of us get bone tired of what often times feels like literal babysitting. We answer the same questions year in and year out, and we hear the same lame-ass jokes over and over. I'm not congratulating someone for eating one vegan burrito and saying "omg it actually didn't taste like shit 😱."

Anyone who has access to the Internet and still thinks vegans can't eat well is purposefully living under a rock. At the end of the day: veganism is about ethics. If the tastiest thing we could eat as vegans for the rest of our lives was dry-ass peanut butter sandwiches on stale bread-- we would still be vegan. The fact that I can slam a giant bowl of Sichuan chik'n or a double-stack Beyond cheezeburger and beer-battered onion rings? That is just... gravy.

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u/spidersandcaffeine vegan 1+ years 7d ago

Thank you!

I’m so sick of this shit. Literally every other space is for omnis and we shouldn’t have people constantly trying to force us to defend ourselves in the one space that isn’t.

I think there should be a “baby steps” subreddits for these people, I’m tired of seeing them complain we’re “mean”. What’s “mean” is violently raping and murdering animals.

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u/MrsEaves 7d ago

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe we just need a /r/beginnervegan or /r/goingvegan to help fill this space whose focus is to help educate people who are interested in going vegan, but need a longer term plan and support to get there in a sustainable way. I’d support posts about a positive new experience with food there, where it will help encourage other omnis who are thinking of transitioning to jump in. But it doesn’t really add much to the conversation in this subreddit, where we already know the food is good and that’s not the point.

I think there’s also a learning curve that’s easy to forget if you’ve been at this a while - how to do this on the cheap, where to look for information, how to think of your food and recipes differently, common conversions... some people don’t even know how to cook and that’s a barrier. Add to that that many people grow up in meat-centric families, and that you need to be a bit more careful about your nutrition, and ... well, I can see why people are looking for support and encouragement.

I haven’t run a subreddit before, but if other people are interested, think it’s a good idea, and would help me get it set up and contribute, I’d be happy to set up a space like this.

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u/grautry vegan 2+ years 7d ago

Yep, you have to realize that most of the omni crying is not about the messaging, it's about the message.

Consider a different issue for a moment - when black athletes kneeled during an anthem to protest racism, a lot of people still lost their shit. That was a form of protest as civil, unobtrusive and harmless as one can possibly imagine. I genuinely have a hard time coming up with a form of activism that is even less obtrusive than that, while still being at all noticeable.

Yet, people still raged - because it wasn't about the messaging, it was about the message. There's simply no form of protest that is so unobtrusive that it won't trigger anyone.

Same story here. The reputation that vegans have for being hostile is wildly, wildly overblown. You can state plain, obvious facts in a non-hostile way and people will still lose their minds. Taking omnis at face value when they whine about how aggressive vegans are is just naive - most of the time, it's not about the methods of activism, it's about activism, they want for you to shut up.

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u/pigeon-bird 7d ago

True! You probably already know about it but you should check out r/vegancirclejerk

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u/Be_Very_Careful_John 7d ago

What's that

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u/We-Are-Only-Animals 7d ago

I think you know, John 😉

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u/stewart789 7d ago

Ah the good book.

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u/sheepguy42 7d ago

“Let's be honest, it has never really been that difficult for people with access to grocery stores and a tiny bit of willpower to be vegan, especially since the advent of the Internet. But now, it's 2021. It's never been easier to be vegan. Even for those us of who don't live near vegan restaurants, we have access to one zillion recipes, cookbooks, blogs, insanely talented YouTubers, and we can buy vegan sausages/nuggets/burgers/ice cream/dairy products (including actual dairy that is animal-free), etc.”

This. A thousand times this.

I’ve been to a vegan deli in recent months. Twice. I can find the vegan analogue products you mentioned in almost every grocery store, from Walmart to the local corner convenience store. It’s remarkable when I can’t find these items in a food store.

At this point it seems weird — and a poor business choice — if a restaurant opens without at least one decent vegan or veganizable entree. Applebee’s appears to be an exception among chain restaurants for not having vegan friendly menu options: Red Robin offered a great vegan burger for years before the Impossible burger existed (and now they have that in addition); TGI Fridays has a Beyond Burger; frickin’ The Cheesecake Factory has an Impossible burger.

Vegan is no longer a scary word for marketing food products. We are surrounded by amazingly delicious vegan food options, so if someone expects a vegan sub’s members to fall over themselves to congratulate an current meat eater for not gagging on a Softitos bowl from Chipotle, an Impossible Whopper (sans mayo) at Burger King, a Gardein sausage breakfast sandwich from Dunkin’ Donuts, a bag of Spicy Sweet Chili Doritos, frickin’ dairy free Häagen-Dazs or Ben & Jerry’s pints at almost any chain grocery store, or any of the other overwhelmingly countless options that probably taste better than the last 3 things that person ate, they will be disappointed.

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u/OrkyArt plant-based diet 7d ago

Honestly this is my favourite part of the movement, I think just by having vegan products that are high quality available more and more people will seriously consider changing their lifestyles.

The only thing that I think would be an even bigger win would be getting some accountability in agriculture. If the cost of meat through its production and its effects of the environment was appropriately priced in even serious carnists would have to drop their consumption to once or twice a week.

I understand that to many vegans that wouldn't be taking this far enough but I would be happy if things just changed to the point where everyone ate healthy and in a way that doesn't destroy our environment.

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u/Icy_Climate 7d ago

If this sub was full of vegans this would be the top comment.

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u/pajamakitten 7d ago

It is now, although I am sure there will be people who will come along and say we are gatekeeping veganism by sticking to its dictionary definition.

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u/ThrowbackPie 7d ago

1) define hostility, or better yet provide an example. I very, very rarely see hostility.

2) provide evidence for the claim that it is causing the growth of veganism to slow.

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u/PurpleFirebolt friends not food 7d ago

This isn't a fan club for cool bean recipes.

Its a collective of those opposed to the slaughter and oppression of sentient beings.

You don't go onto an anti racism sub and say "hey I'm a card carrying KKK member, but I just tried speaking to this black guy like he was a person and he was nice. I still attend and will keep attending rallies where I call for him and his kind to be expunged from the nation, but I think I'm leaning toward being anti-racist" and expect everyone to be like "oh yeh well done, baby steps is how I stopped supporting the state sponsored murder of minorities. Here are some other conversations you can have with black people. Don't let people tell you you're not an anti-racist, anti-racism is just a label, we all make mistakes, some of us just make mistakes 95% of the time, on purpose, and intend to keep making the mistakes."

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u/pinkpoloye 7d ago

This is a vegan sub, not the plant based one.

If in any other sub, somebody who commited a heinous crime (racism, rape, murder, abuse, etc) and they posted something along the lines of "I know what I did is bad, but I'm going to keep doing it. However, I will stop doing it for one day out of the week, is that enough and gives me moral justification for doing it the rest of the week?". What do you think people would respond??

And I'm not saying it's okay to bash and insult people, but I also don't think we are here to babysit grown folk and sugarcoat stuff.

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago

If anyone is interested in being vegan feel free to pm me and I'll tell you what worked for me. I was vegetarian before I went vegan so I won't judge you for anything if you're genuinely interested and trying to change

Looking through these comments by new, it looks like most of you from r/all are just here to shit on us, but just in case, figured I'd offer

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u/swagetthesecond 7d ago

Sorry we don’t want to lick the boots of carnists over the fact that they had a beyond burger last week and are “trying so hard to eat less meat.” We are all tired of hearing that shit. It’s not veganism, they aren’t asking for help, so why is it on our sub?

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u/BlazingDeer 7d ago

Who eats a vegan burrito and then feels the need to brag? Probably not the best candidate for veganism since it’s partly about losing your ego.

Also the entire fucking internet exists. I hate the idea that every single question that’s been answered before we all need to answer real time so someone feels included and special. If eating a vegan burrito made you feel inspired why cant you Google more vegan recipes, or what veganism is about. Why do I personally have to hold your hand and Google it for you? Fuck off.

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u/David-E 7d ago

We must stop the enslavement, rape, torture, and murder of animals. There are other subreddits that can provide the support necessary for the perpetrators of the animal holocaust to feel less bad. The victims do not care about meat-free Mondays. Half-measures still perpetuate and normalize the evil we inflict on animals. Our goal ought to be the end of animal agriculture and bring about liberation for these beings.

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u/enbunny 7d ago

I think this ultimately boils down to the question: is this a sub for vegans, or a sub for people who want to be vegan?

Because if it is a sub for vegans (which it definitely is), then you shouldn't be surprised and/or upset by people expressing vegan opinions in the comments.

This is honestly really embarrassing. OP is leaving because they really expected the vegan population of this vegan subreddit to hold hands and play nice with meat eaters?? They're totally welcome to start their own subreddit where the stated purpose is to coddle carnists. I suggest /r/veganbootlickers

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u/khannatanmai 7d ago

I wonder if people against sexism and racism fight for justice in such amazingly lenient ways. Reward baby steps all you want, what's wrong is wrong, and I'm not going to celebrate somebody who says "oh you know I'm such a good person I don't eat meat on Tuesdays", just like I wouldn't celebrate someone who says "I won't harass women on Tuesdays but I can't stop it's too hard".

Choose where you stand :)

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u/nauticalelliott vegan 1+ years 7d ago

Good cop, bad cop is great. We need both militant vegans and the patient ones. However, animals are being enslaved and murdered by the trillions, and the world is dying. We do not have time to wait, we need a serious sense of urgency. There are so many victims who need help.

Go vegan NOW. No more excuses, no more babysteps.

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u/viscervine 7d ago

I gotta be really honest, I don’t care about an internet stranger’s ego getting hurt because they wanted to post a picture of a salad with as many tags as possible, I care about the slaughter innocent animals. I don’t want to hear from people who eat meat, in the one place on the internet dedicated to people who don’t eat meat. You’re disappointed? I’m disgusted. I think that vegans are totally valid in feeling this way, and allowed to share their dislike.

You are also able to report ACTUALLY offensive comments to the moderators. I personally haven’t seen anything cruel or disparaging, but if you do, you can report it. They will take action on reports, but they’re not omniscient and ever-watching.

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u/krsteeve 7d ago

Isn't this a sub for vegans? Eating one vegan meal doesn't make you vegan, and I don't think it should be applauded by us. Of course I am happy when people eat fewer animals but I'm not about to give them my praise over one meal.

Personally I just don't engage with the kind of posts you're referring too, but I totally get why people would reply.

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u/imagineeatingcorpses 7d ago

I’ve decided to reduce the amount of children I kidnap each month. Baby steps!

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

I haven't made a publicly racist comment today! We're getting there!

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u/Falkoro 7d ago

Murder is never okay you sociopath

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u/buchstabiertafel vegan 7d ago

Imagine going on r/dogs or any sub and start boasting about how you only bet on dog fights on six days of the week instead of all seven.

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u/fahrvergnugman veganarchist 7d ago

Lmao I am going to use this

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u/3n_j4y 7d ago

I don't understand why people feel the need to add that they aren't vegan to the type of posts the OP is describing. You had a great vegan meal and you want to share? Cool, this is the place for it. Why do you have to add that you're not vegan? Why is that relevant?

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u/callmebyyourdadsname 7d ago

i’m not gonna give somebody a round of applause for eating a vegan burrito. seriously? that’s not even hard. vegan burritos are good. they’re not sacrificing anything, especially if they still eat meat regularly. tbh that’s not even really a baby step, it’s just not eating meat for one meal. also, i know this is hypothetical, but an omni coming into a vegan space and saying “i can’t BELIEVE vegan burritos are TASTY!” or “went without meat for a week and it wasn’t even hard!” is downright condescending. yeah, we know. we do it full time. we don’t need to hear it from you.

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u/AllGodsAreFalseGods 7d ago

Hi, I'm old and I've been on the internet longer than most of you have been alive.

Moderators have 1 job: To remove posts from spammers and bots.

Their job is not to interject into other people's' conversations and decide what is right or wrong to say.

You don't remove a comment or ban someone because they have a negative opinion.

If you don't like the negative opinion, you, the user, take action by blocking that person yourself.

https://imgur.com/a/noh20sw

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u/Skytan 7d ago

It's a common misconception that sub-reddits are public forums. They're not. They're the highly curated private forums of the handful of people that have ownership of the sub. This isn't wrong because it's Reddit's principle design and they're very open about it. You've simply deceived yourself into thinking Reddit is something it's not. I empathize though, I regularly find myself deceived by this as well. Nearly every sub for anything I'm interested in is run by horrible people and the curation produces a horrible environment.

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u/pigeon-bird 7d ago

“I, an omni, have taken it upon myself to not use google or the plethora of resources I have at my fingertips and instead seek validation from others about my meatless monday. Go me!”

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago

I find it funny seeing a bunch of non vegans in here trying to tell vegans the best way to make people vegan. Or trying to tell us how veganism is defined. If you can't convince yourself you don't get a vote as to how to convince others.

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u/buchstabiertafel vegan 7d ago

Almost never have I seen genuinely interested non vegans being treated like that.

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u/arose_20 7d ago

I went vegan overnight and I think the babysteps approach would've made my transition more difficult.

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u/UltimaN3rd vegan 7d ago

"My way of vegan activism is the most effective. I have no data to support this, but it is the only method that should be allowed on this sub."

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u/puzzled_person87 7d ago

16k upvotes. 90% by meat eaters and cheese breathers. Should we celebrate people murdering and abusing animals less, like that is some kind of achievement?

I won't believe that this post is on the front page for any reason other than animal abusers think vegans are not nice enough to them. Throw yourselves a pity party in some other sub-reddit.

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u/Stoelpoot30 7d ago

I would have never have gone vegan if no one would have bluntly told me I was still torturing animals as a vegetarian.

You say in your post that people get angry and disgusted and then don't go vegan, but not everybody reacts like that. I got called out and changed my ways. Someone else might go back to carnism, but there's no way to tell if that's the case beforehand.

It's okay to have different voices on a sub. In my opinion r/vegan is very apologetic in general, but that is because my character is more "all-or-nothing" and I don't like to tiptoe around issues. But that's fine. I get annoyed by other vegans all the time. On this sub I am especially annoyed when some vegans tell a carnist who does meatless mondays that they're doing great. But that is okay, I dislike the apologetic behaviour, but not everyone has to act exactly how I like it all the time.

And this is a good thing, because the more different voices we have, the more reach we will have, because different carnists respond to different tones of voice.

So, I say that we DO NOT split this sub. It's fine as it is. If you want something easier, you can go to r/PlantBasedDiet. If you want something more unapologetic, you can go to r/vegancirclejerk, which is the place that I prefer.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I DO NOT condone ad hominems or generally rude comments on the person. What would I personally like to see is people basically saying: "Great that your interested in veganism, but you should know that by taking half-measures you're still hurting animals. It's better to do x y z." But again, just people cheering others on is also perfectly fine, although not my personal cup of tea.

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u/blufair anti-speciesist 7d ago

We have civility rules, which we do enforce. Comments containing bigotry, severe personal attacks, or glorifying death/violence are removed, as is any evidence of stalking or targeting specific users across threads. /r/vegan is a general sub that's meant to provide a community for vegans, as opposed to a sub specifically catered to recruiting new vegans. That means this sub allows a variety of viewpoints to be expressed, some of which are good PR and some which probably aren't. Ultimately, as long as members aren't violating the civility rules they're allowed to say what they want to omnivores. That includes pointing out that people who continue to consume animal products are causing animals to be abused and murdered.

That being said, we don't catch every instance of rule violations. You can help by reporting them when you see them.

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u/DunderBearForceOne vegan 3+ years 7d ago

While I agree with the sentiment of making newcomers feel welcome and we should attempt to make this a welcoming place, the issue I run into is that the way of doing this usually boils down to abandoning the entire vegan philosophy in favor of a carnist one. Even the simple statement "reduction is good" only makes sense from a carnist worldview where we are entitled to animal lives and harming them is neutral. Simply acknowledging one of the most basic vegan ideas that this exploitation and harm is unnecessary and wrong moves the moral baseline of "neutral" is shifted to veganism and any participation in animal agriculture is morally wrong.

You might respond to this with the argument that there is a utilitarian benefit of softening our views to be accommodating, as it will result in more reduction and less overall animal exploitation. This is, however, an opinion with absolutely no evidence whatsoever supporting it, and I can easily turn it around to say the exact opposite. By shifting our narrative to a carnist worldview, we weaken the stance of veganism to prospective vegans and reduce the probability that they'll stick with it, which can increase long term animal abuse. See, I can use baseless claims too to say the opposite, so this argument is not even remotely compelling to me.

So, in summary, I believe we should make this place welcoming to newcomers, but I draw a firm line at abandoning vegan principals in favor of carnist principals in an effort to do so because, in addition to the fact that it damages our ability to communicate with each other, as this is primarily a subreddit for vegans, it is completely baseless and speculative that doing so will have a positive effect. So yea, not licking boots today, not licking boots tomorrow.

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u/TheAnnoyingVegan 7d ago

Hold up. You want the mods to censor those of us who care more about the lives of innocent animals who are being murdered than the feelings of people who don't give a crap? We need less carnist apologism on this sub, not more. Good riddance.

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u/TheRealGreenArrow 7d ago

People do 'attack' trolls or someone who hasn't shown interest in becoming vegan, but if they 'attack' someone legitimately trying to become vegan they aren't supported by the majority. There may be the odd outlier but let's not pretend it's normal or encouraged to attack anyone asking questions or transitioning to veganism.

The direct, truthful approach is not attacking someone. People sometimes take offence or think it's an attack because they know what they are doing is wrong and they are getting called out for it, but that doesn't mean it is an attack. Also, when you expect vegans to attack you it's pretty easy to convince yourself that they have and then complain about it.

Being truthful, direct, and sometimes a little harsh works for some people. It can turn people vegan. It's not bullying or attacking, it's just telling it how it is. It doesn't work for some people.

Being encouraging or supportive of taking steps can also work for some people. It can turn people vegan. It doesn't work for some people. I can see why people have issues with it though as no-one would encourage a domestic abuser, rapist, etc. to gradually stop doing those things, they expect them to stop straight away.

Both can work. Without knowing who you are talking to, how do you know your method is better than the other? The goal is to turn someone vegan.

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u/TeaTimeForRaptors 7d ago

Just tossing my two cents into this conversation. I believe that vegans should have this spot as a safe place to chat amongst other vegans. But maybe it's time to create a new sub. Call it something like Vegan-lite, Vegan-leaning, or Going Vegan for those specifically wishing to talk about going that direction but are not quite full time yet. Why keep the name vegan in it? So people interested in it can find it. Go play in the vegetarian subs you say? But there is a difference between vegetarian and vegan. Maybe there needs to be a sub halfway between the two. If there already is a sub like this I'm not aware of it.

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u/joelajackson 7d ago

Sounds like you should be on r/vegetarian. I like this sub, but tbh it's more about the memes. Vegetarian is a wonderful community which helps people eat less animal products.

Just different things. Sometimes people need a safe space to vent, and I think that's what this is.

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u/reddtoomuch vegan 7+ years 7d ago

We are vegans. Not recruiters.

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u/doombringer-dh77 7d ago

Well we want to get as many people into veganism as possible, it's that this subreddit isnt for that.

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u/Environmental-Joke19 vegan 5+ years 7d ago

Sure, but that doesn't mean we need to congratulate people for paying for less animal abuse. They're still complicit in an awful system, and if they know what goes on and continue to do it thats not about me or my attitude, it's about them.

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u/lotec4 vegan 1+ years 7d ago

If someone is genuily interested in veganism nobody is toxic towards them. I haven't seen it once. Are we toxic town trolls? Yes 100% yes and we have every right to be.

Most "vegans" that get upset about toxicity are ones that say shit like it's ok to ride horses or to feed dead a impala to your pets. If you call yourself vegan I expect you to do as little as one google search.

Feel free to share a single toxic comment where someone is genuily interested

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u/Kmactothemac 7d ago

And there's an insane amount of trolls, on this sub and towards veganism in general, that have led to many of us vegans feeling a lot more hostile right off the bat. Reddit is not a nice place for vegans

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u/singleuseredditacct 7d ago edited 7d ago

I have never seen anyone attack someone for making a true effort, only to inform them that vegan is not a diet and is the least we can do all the time, not just on Monday. This sub is supposed to be to encourage people to go vegan because of the animals, not to praise someone who isn't even making a real effort.

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u/beckygreen89 7d ago

I went vegan because I watched freelee the banana girl on YouTube 8 years ago LoL

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u/CaptainRockstein 7d ago

Entirely disagree. Baby steps are for cowards. You have moral agency and it’s not that hard. You shouldn’t be praised for actively choosing to murder animals when you can very easily not do that.

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u/Oopsiewoopsieeee 7d ago

Well it’s not a meat eaters community

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u/BrilliantBlueberry 7d ago

r/vegan is not primarily vegans. The votes don't represent vegans at all. Most of the people who actually vote are not vegans because most of the people on reddit are not vegans. The fact that this is super upvoted drama bait is in no way representative of anything meaningful. It is a bunch of non vegans with veganteacher hate boners projecting on a small minority of people against animal abuse. Fuck this post.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

Well this is r/vegan, you'll get vegan opinions. It is not a vegan opinion to celebrate someone who only shreds animals five days a week instead of seven.

It's not r/CoddleMeatEaters, that's what almost every other subreddit is for. I would like some spaces where it is not presented as ok to shred animals five times a week. Where am I supposed to go? r/vegancirclejerk? That gets really old really fast.

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u/VegangLetYoNutsHang 7d ago

No wonder I hardly look at this subreddit anymore.

Stop. Sucking. Off. Animal. Abusers.

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u/napalmtree13 7d ago

Ah, the tried-and-true karma-farming method; bash vegans on the vegan sub under the guise of standing up for the poor, abused omnis who aren’t getting enough head pats.

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u/Legitimate-Peach-631 7d ago

Disagree. I'm vegan and think the vegan sub should be for vegans. Not nonvegans.

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u/miguelito_loveless vegan 10+ years 7d ago edited 6d ago

Reads like a joke letter from one of my friends at VCJ. This letter-writer really wants the mods to intervene due to omnis not being celebrated because they dared eat a burrito sans abuse? Give me a damn break.

Vegans are still free to let people who, after all, continue to consciously support animal exploitation, know that their daytripping self-congratulatory nonsense is just one action in isolation and that not actually making a decision is on them, not on the ever-passionate but tired folks who want to live their vegan lives and fight for the animals where possible.

The intent of those daytrippers may be hopeful, sure. They're looking for something here. Maybe asked a question, even wishing for some recognition, I guess? How long should the human parent of a rescued pig keep dealing sweetly with the didn't-mean-nothing-by-it jokes from other humans about murdering and eating that piggy, before shutting off, vocally defending family, or just hanging back and being silent all the time (unless someone genuinely caring comes along to light them up again)? Should they always positively acknowledge some jerk making a funny?

Obviously bragging about eating a PB burger and joking about murder aren't the same thing. But I think the well of energy it takes to remain cheerful with all that shite is the same, and that source runs out just the same. Becoming upset about others shaking their heads at dumb baby crap that those head-shakers have had to groan about for years-- to the extent of requesting intervention-- is immature and egotistical.

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u/Dmeks1 7d ago

I was going to stop killing animals but, someone hurt my feelings.

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