r/AdviceAnimals 7d ago

Job Recruiters and Human Resources, this means YOU Repost | Removed

https://i.imgur.com/lc1FRNw.jpg
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u/farleys2 6d ago

Or what the job is. I recently saw the description for the job I’ve been doing for 10 years and I don’t think I’d even apply for it with the description our HR department uses. Did you learn how to write this shit in “Being overly ambiguous with techno gibberish 101”?

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u/Dessicant81 6d ago

They rewrote our job descriptions in December and all of us, about 30 or so, hate it. I wouldn't have applied for it, especially with what the pay is now.

Several of us still mention in every capacity we can that the job descriptions are not accurate or even positive.

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u/anaemic 6d ago edited 6d ago

Welcome to nursing.

"We're looking for a dynamic enthusiastic team player who is confident and adaptable. Responsibilities include supporting senior leadership and taking responsibility for duties and workloads as assigned. You'll be a member of an exciting fast paced team working in a challenging environment. "

YES BUT WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?!

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u/AngelOfMusic42 6d ago

With a description as vague as that, the answer is whatever they want and tell you to do. That way when your duties keep changing you can't complain because of that catch all phrase

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u/anaemic 6d ago

"but you hired me to work as a respiratory ward nurse, what do you mean you're reassigning me to clean toilets in outpatients?"

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u/visionsofblue 6d ago

When I was 16 I was hired to wash dishes at a seafood restaurant and ended up spending a good portion of time sweeping duck shit off of the dock.

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u/fkgjbnsdljnfsd 6d ago

honestly that doesn't seem worse, but maybe i just hate dishes

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u/captainJmorgan 6d ago

It’s not the dishes that suck, it’s either:

A) being wet because you don’t have an apron

B) sweating because the dragon gives off so much humidity

C) both

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u/qwadzxs 6d ago

the dragon?

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u/ONOMATOPOElA 6d ago

He’s out fighting dragons and what did his cousin get? Guard duty.

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u/Foda-seSeiLa 6d ago

Yes, the dragon, one of a professional kitchen's many specialized tools. They are standard in many home kitchens also, and can be found together with plates, cupboards, gas or electricity stoves, cutlery, Mechiolok the devourer of souls, detergent, drapes, etc.

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u/PM_UR_FRUIT_GARNISH 6d ago

Dishwasher water is really hot if it's up to temp. So, when you open it "the dragon breathes smoke". Also, it's usually best to let dishes cool off, so your racks of dishes become the tongue.

...kitchen work is dull and stressful, so everyone tries to make it more fun to be at work, for the most part.

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u/thematt455 6d ago

The restaurant grade dishwasher. When you open it it sprays a thick mist of steam and fog at you that waterlogs your sinuses and cooks your eyes.

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u/A-A-RONBURGUNDY 6d ago

D) garbage bag poncho to maximize heat and dampness

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u/B-Glasses 6d ago

As a former dishwasher I’d rather do that

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u/visionsofblue 6d ago

The dishes still piled up while I was out there, though

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u/YoureInGoodHands 6d ago

Then the duck shit piles up while you're inside.

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u/visionsofblue 6d ago

Ain't that the truth, though.

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u/Registered_Nurse_BSN 6d ago

I would happily clean toilets for the same salary.

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u/magicone2571 6d ago

Lol... When I was younger I got hired as a installation manager for mobile electronics company. Or at least thought I did. There wasn't any "mobile electronics" to install once I started the job. I sat in my office, day after day, slowly I was given "tasks" to do. Mow the grass, paint the walls, do inventory... I became the janitor for this electronics company that said they had a mobile division. I finally quit when this service techs for another part of the company would just dump all their shit in the garage and I was to be expected to clean it. Have their trucks ready, etc.

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u/Datsyuk_My_Deke 6d ago

That fucking “additional duties” caveat was the bane of my last job. Nothing was off the table, since my supervisor could point to that line of my job description. After several years, I found out from my boss that I could request a classification review. It took 4-5 months to get the results, but it finally turned out that I had not only been working far above my pay grade, but I was being underpaid relative to everyone else in my position by about $500 a month. The results happened to come in after I put in my two weeks, but at least they paid me the difference backdated to when the request was filed.

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u/DkS_FIJI 6d ago

"Other duties as assigned" is my favorite bullshit catch all.

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u/crazyashley1 6d ago

The minute they start going into nebulous personality traits I'm out. Tell me the job tasks. I'll fake the personality until you can't afford to fire me or I hit some reasonable "now I can quit" benchmark.

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u/Sr_Mothballs 6d ago

I'll fake the personality until you can't afford to fire me or I hit some reasonable "now I can quit" benchmark.

I've never seen my work ethos written out before...

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u/mrevergood 6d ago

It’s beautiful, isn’t it?

Shit should be on a motivational poster on a wall somewhere.

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u/Wannabkate 6d ago

dynamic enthusiastic team player who is confident and adaptable = You got to be flexible because you will be in the nursing pool that gets moved around a lot. And be happy about it.

Responsibilities include supporting senior leadership and taking responsibility for duties and workloads as assigned= supervisors are going to push all the work onto you.

You'll be a member of an exciting fast paced team working in a challenging environment. = There's a lot of work because we are under staffed so you better be quick.

Does it clear things up?

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u/Albion2304 6d ago

All while carefully sidestepping mentioning the responsibilities of patient care.

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u/MissJBoo 6d ago

You have to add something about being like a family in there.

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u/ThisIsMyRedditLogin 6d ago

"Like a family" in business-speak means "toxic work environment" to the rest of us.

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u/CatapultemHabeo 6d ago

See also "we work hard and play hard"

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u/Derock85z 6d ago

That's my current company's motto, and by that they mean to say we'll work you 60+ hours a week and Saturday, have you do the job of 3 people and ride your ass about stupid shit that you missed because we "don't have the time" to deal with this ourselves. Because they "pride themselves in top tier customer service"..... Glad I put my 2 weeks in yesterday.

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u/CatapultemHabeo 6d ago

Good on you! I just walked out of my last job, and damn that was a great day.

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u/NaturallyExasperated 6d ago

Ideally this would mean "we don't drug test"

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u/CJsAviOr 6d ago

That just means they overwork you for mediocre pay and then you and coworkers get smashed on Fridays because yall need it to drown out the shitty job.

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u/codercaleb 6d ago

The whole steel industry, you say.

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u/MissJBoo 6d ago

Yep I normally nope right out of that’s what they say. It normally means they’ll guilt you constantly, try to force you to stay late and come in early. It’s generally not a great vibe.

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u/Demdolans 6d ago

It's crazy the way that normal jobs have now adopted the cultural -team -family psychobabble of MLMs. Last time I checked, "being a team player" meant the ability to collaborate . NOT, the willingness to spend Thanksgiving doing the work of 4 people.

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u/Cheet4h 6d ago

Reading all of this, it feels weird being actually employed by a company who behaves the way others advertise themselves. We have a trust-based hours system, which means nobody keeps track of how long you work, leadership just assumes that you work as long as you have to according to your contract, if you have issues with work you aren't written up and instead management tries to help with solving problems, everyone's pretty honest, and so on.
That said, we don't advertise it in our recruitment. Also, the pay isn't that good, so the attitude of my coworkers and managers here are one of the few reasons I stay even if I could get better pay elsewhere.

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u/forcepowers 6d ago

Had a manager get on to me about how our company was "like a family" once and I needed to be more engaged.

He got fired a week later. Really wanted to ask how he felt about the family after that.

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u/DickMadeMeGay 6d ago

Literally word-for-word what a Restaurant job posting looks like.

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u/Fitter4life 6d ago

Take care of 60 patients because staff turnover is so high and everybody calls in because they hate working there. Source: spent 12 years as a nurse

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u/ColoneISanders 6d ago

I've noticed that with my job as well.

I think it's a combination of ambiguity due to writing about something you're not very familiar with, plus writing for an ideal candidate/job of what you think the job should be but not what it actually is.

The way they've described my job you'd figure we were juggling multiple state of the art platforms and programming and making large calculations, when in fact 95% of our job is just copy/pasting from excel spreadsheets, and using excel formulas.

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u/Killbot_Wants_Hug 6d ago

I've written the starting job requirements before and seen how they morph.

It's kind of silly but here's how I experience it.

As a programmer I'm looking for a junior programmers. I put the stuff that we do every day and that they should have competency in to do the job as requires, this is really basic stuff like C#, SQL, HTML, Javascript, CSS and since it's not a completely entry level job I put something like 1-2 years of experience in those skills. I don't even put things like jQuery on the must haves, it'd be weird if someone didn't have it at this point, but if you can do javascript competently than I can teach someone jQuery in no time.

I put the other technologies that we use into the nice to have group, like we use gitlab. It's great if I don't have to walk you through how to use gitlab, but if I do it's not a big deal. I'd rather get a good developer who has been using some other source control system than a bad developer who knows the current source control system. Teaching you to use a source control system isn't hard, teaching you proper object design and programming philosophies is something I don't have time for. I might also add some cool technologies we aren't using and I don't have experience with but that look like they'd be useful to the department as a nice to have.

The hiring manager will take what I've written, add every technology that we use regularly from my "nice to have" catagory and move it to the "required" category. They'll decide while it's a junior position they want someone who is really good, so they'll add a year or two of experience to the years I've listed (even though from what I've seen, people are good at something based more on how interested they are in it than in how long they've been doing it, I've met programmers who have been in the industry for 20+ years who can't program at all). Then they'll think of a bunch of skillsets that they think would be cool to use, and they'll add those in as either "required" or "nice to have" depending on how interested they are in them.

Then it goes over to HR (or sometimes a director level before HR). Here they add a few more years of experience to all the required fields. They also add in that they must have a degree (the best programmers I've ever met don't have degrees, they were the best programmers because they loved programming enough to teach it to themselves, or sometimes they were just old enough that they became programmers before there were really comp sci degrees). Then they add all the industry talk to the required section, like "full stack developer" and all that bulllshit; I already said they had to know C#, SQL and HTML/CSS/Javascript, if they can do those than they can obviously do full stack for websites. And they add a bunch of other buzz words and hot technologies to the required and nice to have sections. They take a description that gives a general outline of what you'd be doing and turn it into buzz word soup that means nothing. "Developer responsible for new feature development, bug fix, and business requirements gathering for a C# website with SQL backend" becomes "Dynamic individual able to interface with customers to find and deliver the best development outcomes in a face paced microsoft environment" (if it even comes out that sensible, because I swear the people who write them don't know what half the words mean).

That's how you get a Jr Dev position that just needs a year or two of experience with the relevant technologies to have things like "5 years of Visual Studio 2019", "AWS Full Stack Developer" and all that other bullshit you see on a job listing.

If I get real lucky they'll come back and show it to me and I can tell them why they should take a bunch of the bullshit off of there. Although a lot of the bullshit will still stay. Otherwise it'll just go as HR writes it.

Luckily for me I now work at places that are large enough where I don't have to do that stuff. It's rather frustrating. It also sucks because when you write job requirements like that you tend to only get people who just lie about everything and are totally unqualified. Because the people who could meet the real job requirements but aren't liars (or who just don't know how job applications work) see it as a job where they don't have nearly the qualifications for it, so they don't apply. And the people who do have all those qualifications are high pay contractors who move from job to job so they can stay on the most current technologies so they can keep demanding the super high pay.

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u/DepressedElephant 6d ago edited 6d ago

Also in IT - and also had to write job descriptions.

My favorite is when we get 1 opening but we actually need 3 people in 3 distinctly different teams.

So you'd say well duh post 3 positions - except we can't - because we only have one requisition slot. HR has to be involved for every posting and if we get 1 opening we can only have 1 posting for it.

So what do we do? Why easy - we get requirements from all 3 and put them on the same damn job description. So you get a bizarre job description....

With all that said - the applicants don't even seem to read the damn thing anyway given that every phone screen I've done ever starts with asking them what they think the job they applied to is and they can't even list a line from the posting half the time...or have any clue about where they are applying...

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u/tristn9 6d ago

That’s because it quickly becomes a game of: fuck it, I’ll just apply to everything and maybe I’ll hear back. I remember having 50+ emails about applications from each of 10+ job search sites.

Sometimes I ended up applying for the same position multiple times as a result of all the different ways they would post it on the various sites and how well they maintained their postings.

But this problem got especially worse as I had to keep expanding what I was looking for/applying at to the point that I was applying to multiple/different fields.

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u/kavien 6d ago

My fifth grade computer teacher told me I was cheating because instead of typing each line 50 times, I was copy/pasting it 50 times.

She told me I would NEVER use that in the real world.

That was 40 years ago. I’ve used copy/paste nearly every day of my adult life and can still type over 70 wpm.

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u/nithos 6d ago

I have been doing the exact same job for nearly 20 years. Every 3-5 years, HR comes by and gives me a new job title and job description.

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u/imadethisformyphone 6d ago

Also they shouldn't hide the name of the company. I have been getting a ton of emails from some recruiter and only after I ignored the first 5 or so did they start naming the company they were hiring for in the email. I would never take a job without doing some research on the company first.

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u/ProfessionalTensions 6d ago

I think recruiters avoid saying the name so you can't go find the job and apply without talking to them.

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u/Wangpasta 6d ago

Yeah recruitment agencies work on commissions big time.

Source:working in accounts for a company and saw my own payment for hiring me, was more then my monthly salary.

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u/nondescriptzombie 6d ago

Then you might find out that they have a 2 star rating on Google and that all of the complaints are justified.

At least that's what I assume when there's no company info.

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u/Demdolans 6d ago

Yeah, or it's some throwaway sub contractor that needs a million employees for exactly one year or something.

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u/msirelyt 6d ago

Typically recruiters are not so keen on sharing the name of the company on a first email. They will eventually tell you when you respond back and say that you are interested or something along those lines. My guess is, since they make their money from the referral, they would prefer not to divulge that information until you are reading to go to the next step. Otherwise, I could take the info tell all my friends, and it will be less likely that they get paid.

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u/VooDooBarBarian 6d ago

"Requires [x] years of experience with [new technology]"

\new technology] first available (x-3 years ago))

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u/MrGgoldy 6d ago

"Entry level jobs with entry level pay" "Requires 5+ years experience"

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u/skeetsauce 6d ago

More like: Non-entry level job with sub entry level pay, requires 5+ years of experience, also fuck you.

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u/Paging_Dr_Chloroform 6d ago

Salary range $25,000 - $85,000.

Well, WTF?

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u/senorpoop 6d ago

That's better than "negotiable" IMHO. Not much better, but an improvement.

I hate "negotiable" as a salary range. No shit it's negotiable. What I want to know is do you have a reasonable expectation of what someone is going to make in this position?

"Well pay depends on qualifications and experience."

Once again, no shit, Sherlock. YOU LITERALLY HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS AND EXPERIENCE REQUIRED FOR THE JOB IN THE AD

HOW MUCH DO YOU PAY FOR THAT

FUCK ME it shouldn't be this hard.

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u/The-Fox-Says 6d ago

This. Especially with the internet now. If your HR department can’t do simple research on how much a person in the position with that experience gets paid then fire them.

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u/skeetsauce 6d ago

Them: This is a negoiation.

Me: Okay, I want $200k.

Them: Be serious and professional please.

Me: Being as professional as not including the pay in the ad.

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u/bigheyzeus 6d ago edited 6d ago

I recently started a new job where I'm in charge of our recruitment process and we had salaries with a $50k-wide range. It's the first thing I changed.

In fairness, companies who've never had any guidance on hiring really don't know how terrible their processes and approach actually are. They honestly mean well, they're just clueless a lot of the time. When you show them the money and time they're wasting and also how they're damaging their own reputation they start to listen.

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u/saltyjello 6d ago

In some industries it's more like two lifetimes of experience and a reference from Abraham Lincoln and knowing someone who already works there, and having access to a vehicle.

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u/Lane_Meyers_Camaro 6d ago

I just say that I'm certified in pseudocode and led the development team for the malleable logarithmic casing on Rockwell's turbo encabulator.

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u/makemejelly49 6d ago

Exactly. I would throw in some SCP Foundation terminology, too. The more acronyms the better. Like, "I was a Junior Researcher on the SRA (Scranton Reality Anchor) project, and fully trained to operate SCP-914."

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u/blipman17 6d ago

Ohh that thing? I worked with that to decelop the retro encabulator for sinus-sinusoidal movements in the application of nofer trunions

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u/fluffy207 6d ago

So many job postings have absurd requirements it makes me wonder at what point is it ok to just lie or embellish on your resume. Especially now that a computer cuts out applicants based on keywords or whatever parameters before a human even glances at it.

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u/PeyoteCritical 6d ago

My current CIOs resume was complete garbage filled with buzzwords. They still hired that clown.

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u/redsfan4life411 6d ago

This is very common.

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u/BlueDevilz 6d ago

And is why so many incompetent people get hired. Its not about being truthful, its about lying about yourself in an attractive way.

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u/Bradddtheimpaler 6d ago

Also probably why you get high enough in any big organization and all of the leaders are psychopathic.

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u/FMLsAll9 6d ago

Is your ceo on aderall too? I think ours misses doses. He got mad in a meeting and just started explosively yelling out like a terrets attack. This was on a zoom call.

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u/mosstrich 6d ago

It he way I’ve gone to interpreting it is, any experience even resembling what they are looking for counts. You use excel to track the supplies needed for your field event for the last couple of years, congratulations 2 years of logistical experience, 2 years field experience, adept at using Microsoft office suite.

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u/NadirPointing 6d ago

15+ years DevOps experience in Kubernetes

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u/VooDooBarBarian 6d ago

At this point, I'd hire someone who could spell Kubernetes...

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u/adx321 6d ago

There's a great story (not sure if it's true) where the guy who created a specific programming language was in a job interview and was asked if he was proficient in that language :) I want to believe it's true, possibly Ruby on Rails but maybe something else.

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u/SirTeffy 6d ago

Specufically, he was asked about his proficiency and responded "I created that language three years ago. Why are you asking for 5 years' experience?"

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u/Bob_12_Pack 6d ago

I had a lazy boss that would re-use job descriptions from previous postings. We'd have people interviewing just walk out on us sometimes because the reality of the job wasn't what the posting said. Some even got hired and found out later that they would not be actually doing the work they thought they were hired to do. Fucking government workers...

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u/ProfessionalTensions 6d ago

Oh hey, I just conducted an interview with this same problem.

Interviewee asked about some technologies and I said "yeah, we used to use those, but now we use x, y, and z". He was surprisingly not happy.

I went to look at the job description and it's the same one I responded to when I applied.

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u/AtlUtdGold 6d ago

I found a text generator for that kind of shit. It’s a joke but most of it sounds like shit companies say so it works.

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u/karrachr000 6d ago

The physical security department, for the company that I work for, includes a line in the job description that reads "and any other tasks as required by management" as a way for the manager to ask you to do anything he wants and you can't say that it is outside of your job description.

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u/Wangpasta 6d ago

‘Accountant with 5 years of experience, must have used double entry bookkeeping in the past’ ...I interviewed for a position like that, they repeatedly asked if I knew double entry bookkeeping and I couldn’t think of more ways to explain that it’s the basis of almost all bookkeeping and there’s not really a thing such as non double entry. They reply with ‘so, you’ve only done it in theory?’

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u/codyish 6d ago edited 6d ago

As of this year, the salary range is required by law in any job posting in Colorado. It's already having the intended effect of empowering applicants and existing employees while causing consternation for less scrupulous executives.

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u/NadirPointing 6d ago

How precise do they have to be? is 50-200k/yr precise enough?

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u/codyish 6d ago

There is no precision requirement, but it has to be something they would really pay. It will take some time to play out but if a company develops a habit of never paying the highest end of their advertised pay range they can be reported and face penalties. There is also already evidence that posting extremely wide pay ranges backfires as candidates see it as a red flag so fewer quality people apply, and those that do have more informed bargaining power.

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u/letmebehealthy 6d ago

My company just posted their ranges for engineering positions.

E.g. Software Engineer 1 through Software Engineer 3 has a range of $60k to $90k

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u/time_fo_that 6d ago

That sounds really low

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u/NewStrike3932 6d ago

Depends on what a SE1-SE3 does. That'll vary from company to company and depending on the COL.

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u/Imonfiyah 6d ago

Looks very average. Senior gets 95-105k

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u/SonnyDelight_ 6d ago

I have about a year experience and was offered 125k total comp in an average cost of living area. Who tf would take a Senior SWE position with compensation at 95k ????

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u/CPT_Arsenic 6d ago

Depends. Do you live in Mobile, AL or San Francisco, CA?

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u/prowness 6d ago

Probably not San Francisco since OP said average cost of living. Perhaps Sacramento County is more in line with “average”.

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u/SonnyDelight_ 6d ago

City in Texas, I commented above the Cali campus is 10-15% higher compensation. The senior level would probably be over 200k.

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u/maevian 6d ago

Seems like a reasonable range, huge difference between software engineers when it comes to experience, especially in the language you require

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u/dirty_cuban 6d ago

Yep some jobs are posted with a massive range. I’ve seen the opposite too. Jobs for senior engineering managers that say something like: the minimum salary for this position is $45k a year. Well that’s about a third of what they’ll actually need to pay someone for that role but I guess it complies with the law.

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u/Finger11Fan 6d ago

I applied for a State government job in Colorado after being a State government employee for many years in Michigan. The scale was something ridiculous like $1,300 - $3,500/ month. They told me in the interview that despite my experience, they start everyone off at the lowest end of the pay scale, and the $3,500 was what you could make at the very top after being there 5+ years.

If I have to have 5+ years of internal experience, that's not actually the pay.

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u/Kill_the_rich999 6d ago

Also, you "could" make that much after 5 years. But you won't, no matter what you do.

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u/Sr_Mothballs 6d ago

Same experience in MI at DHHS. Unless specifically hired into a supervisory role, you start at the bottom, then really make your money after your second year.

Burn out is at 2 years from most MI DHHS positions, hence you needing to "earn" your way up. Basically, if you'll stick through the insane work load and requirements, then they'll pay you a modest salary.

But I agree, completely bullshit lure.

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u/bankrobba 6d ago

Salary Range: Minimum Wage - Maximum wage

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u/thrice1187 6d ago

Wow I was not aware of this. As a Denver resident that’s been on the job hunt for a few months now I have definitely noticed a lot more listings that include salaries lately.

There are still quite a few without them though. Wonder if it’s a remote work loophole or something?

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u/Heysteeevo 6d ago

This is huge for building power for labor

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u/jaggazz 6d ago

I once went through a hiring process. I had a job, so I wasn't really looking, but figured I would do some exploring. The process took a month, and after the last interview the recruiter asked if I was interested. I said, "I mean yeah, but you haven't even made me an offer yet." He wanted me to accept the job on a vague salary range, and a verbal agreement. It was like I was training their HR department on how to make an offer. I made them put it in writing and when I got it, it literally would have been a demotion in title, and a paycut of 15k. Fuck you.

I politely declined the offer though, because you never burn bridges.

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u/Scoopable 6d ago

Sadly you weren't training. Ive seen and heard about this too often to believe its due to lack of an experienced HR, and truly believe its just another tactic taught internally.

How often do you hear not to discuss wages or salary? As well if I wanted to ensure I always have a 'team player' im not hiring the person who sees value in themself enough to actually negotiate there worth with me.

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u/neoCanuck 6d ago

How often do you hear not to discuss wages or salary?

HR person: Let not focus on the salary for this position at this point...

(2 mins later...)

HR person: I see you work at ACME, how much are they paying you? ...

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u/SprinklesFancy5074 6d ago

I see you work at ACME, how much are they paying you? ...

That's a great time to lie. Just name the amount of money you'd like to be making, and then they'll feel pressured to match or beat that. And it's not like they really have any way to verify what you're actually making.

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u/leaky_wand 6d ago

Yeah I was dumb enough to tell the truth at my last interview. They absolutely hit me over the head with it during salary negotiations. No good can come from being truthful on a stupid question like that.

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u/Zediac 6d ago

I'm happy at my job and plan to stay for now but I keep an updated resume online.

When a recruiter or someone calls me to talk about a job position I make it known that I'm not actively looking but I'm willing to hear what anyone has to say. I also say that in order to actually get my attention the pay needs to be [my current salary + 20%].

Most times they politely thank me for my time and hang up.

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u/Honic_Sedgehog 6d ago

Last interview I had I averaged my monthly overtime over the last 2 years, added that to my salary, then rounded up the the nearest 5k.

Got an offer too, shame the job turned out to be shit. Advertised as a senior position but was actually help-desk bitch. No thanks, did my time there already.

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u/JRDruchii 6d ago

I just assume it's a value reflection of their company. If their HR isnt competent or direct I assume that's how they treat everyone and everything.

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u/Toshinit 6d ago

The company I work for has a baller HR team. They know what people want to hear and just solve problems. I remember interviewing there and when I asked the range of salary they flat out said “It’s ultimately up to X but I’ve seen your resume type before and I’d expect in the upper half of our range”

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u/PeyoteCritical 6d ago

I laugh at HR people who come at me like that.

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u/thegroovemonkey 6d ago

If HR workers had talent they wouldn't be in HR.

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u/thatsinterrobangin 6d ago

As an HR worker, I 100% agree.

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u/EffortAutomatic 6d ago

I had one of those! They wanted me to sign an NDA before they let me know what my duties and salary would be.

The answers:

Duties = too many for one person

Salary= so embarassingly low they want you to sign a NDA

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u/baodehui 6d ago

I have a job I like, but I'm in an industry that is growing really fast. I get a fair amount of recruiter inquiries, but usually not for positions that are obviously appealing. I typically ignore them, but every so often I'll start a conversation... the very first thing I insist we align on is salary expectation. Otherwise the whole thing is a waste of time.

Since I'm willing to walk away, I'm usually able to get them to commit to a range up front.

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u/GiantJellyfishAttack 6d ago

This happened to me once too..

Was working a reception type of office job. Two of the older people retired who did the actual work and my boss told me they interviewing a few people but wanted me to interview and make a career out of this.

Went to the interview, was told they are "revamping" that specific job, meaning I would have to do more work than the guy I woudl be replacing.... And the salary they were offering me was only $1/hour more than what I was making. And I knew the guy working that job before me made almost double what I was currently making... I couldn't believe it.

Told them no way. Quit pretty soon afterwords too. Way better off now haha

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u/Joe32123 6d ago

I recently did an phone interview and they asked me what the least is would consider was. I gave them a number and they asked me to come for an in person then offered me less like 2 days later. Why waste your time and mine.

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u/Primantieq 6d ago

Obviously I don't know all the details of this story. But in recruiting a lot of times we will do this with candidates to gauge their interest/commitment to the job. But it seems like in your case they were trying to take advantage of you. I always tell people exactly what will come in the offer letter.

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u/tuesti7c 6d ago

I remember applying for a job. Someone called me to set up an interview. I basically had to say "before we waste anyone's time, please tell me the salary before we continue with an interview." In a polite way.

They dodged and dodged and eventually relented and told me. It was less than half of what I currently make. Dont waste either of our time. Tell me upfront

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u/unlock0 6d ago

I had the same experience after a callback from a military job fair. I was like... you realize any person you spoke with yesterday makes twice that. No one is going to come in with years of QA experience to work for 14 bucks an hour. It was insulting.

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u/bigheyzeus 6d ago edited 6d ago

Been recruiting for over 10 years now but mostly on the corporate side of things. While I'm a firm believer in advertising salary, the shitstorm it can cause for internal employees is often a nightmare for companies so they don't do it to hide their own internal pay problems.

Companies that haven't been outside their "bubble" in a while and are looking to expand are often blindsided by what candidates are asking even if it's fair and what the market is at. If you advertise the fair salary then many internal employees are basically shown how their own pay hasn't kept up with the times (because why would a company pay you more than it needs to?) and so they rightfully get upset. That's an ignoring internal pay equity issue and senior leadership in combination with clueless HR is on the hook for that one.

Of course as we all know, keeping pay secret benefits the company and not the employees for many reasons so it's no surprise.

Regardless, you're a pretty shit recruiter if you're not talking money in the first 10 minutes of an initial conversation about the job anyway, advertised salary or not.

Also, candidates will obviously say they're interested regardless of salary because until they're presented with an offer in writing there's no reason to negotiate yet. You want to get to the offer stage so of course you're not going to disqualify yourself. Shit, many candidates I've dealt with know damn well what our pay is and that it's too low for them, they still want to move forward and don't mention anything. Can't really blame them, I've been there myself. How the many hiring managers I've worked with don't know this is beyond me.

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u/King-of-Plebs 6d ago

This. Been recruiting for 2 years now and giving the salary range is discussed in the first 5 minutes of the call. If it doesn’t match what they are looking for, why waste both of our time?

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u/bigheyzeus 6d ago

Companies know people are desperate and want to underpay I guess

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u/King-of-Plebs 6d ago

This is where the difference between a staffing company and HR comes in. It’s my job to get people hired for the most money they can get. Not the opposite.

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u/fsdagvsrfedg 6d ago

I'm comfy and only a head turner will move me to an interview. I state this in my first reply to suitors that "thanks for your interest but due to a high volume blah blah I expect a salary in the range of x-y".

Works well. Weeds out the time wasters.

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u/bigheyzeus 6d ago

That approach just makes things easy for everyone involved. That's how it should be. At the very least it's market research I can go back to a hiring manager with.

If 20 good candidates want $20k over what we've budgeted then maybe we need to up our pay. It's not rocket surgery

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u/fsdagvsrfedg 6d ago

The best candidates are most likely in good, well paying jobs. Or have cushy numbers with an ok pay and are happy with the trade off.

The only way to attract these people is to make them an offer so good they have to consider

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u/myopinionstinks 6d ago

Worked in recruiting for about 14 years. I'd always put the job's pay in the description because, well, people don't respond otherwise. They know the game. I know the game. New finance guy comes in one day. He's livid that his job post went out with a price tag on it. Turns out a couple people in his department saw the job ad and it was higher than their pay and they'd been there for years! So the big boss tells me to take it off to satisfy douche-manager who should have been paying his people more the whole time. I swear we're not all evil. Just mostly evil. I'm so glad I'm out of that department now. Cheers.

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u/SprinklesFancy5074 6d ago

So the big boss tells me to take it off

Yeah, that'll fix everything. I'm sure the current employee will just forget how much the job listing was for as soon as the listing is removed.

The moral of the story: Always be looking for a new job. Always. In 90% of companies, getting a new job at a different company is the only way you'll ever get significant raises or promotions.

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u/programmingReality 6d ago

If people were not actually applying they would switch up their tactics.

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u/fluffy207 6d ago

The threat of hunger and poverty limits most people's ability to not apply to certain jobs. It probably varies from field to field but I see more job posting without a salary than with one.

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u/Midgetman664 6d ago

People with money forget that some people just need a job regardless of if it pays well. Not everyone can afford to turn down a shady offer

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u/MightyCaseyStruckOut 6d ago

They're definitely not forgetting that fact. They're banking on it. Literally and figuratively.

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u/nau5 6d ago

Don't forget the places that already have a candidate they want to hire but need to field other applicants due to rules or regulations.

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u/rysgame 6d ago

So like 85% of management gigs. I'm all for hiring from within (it's what my company does) but the rule that they have to do that is stupid.

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u/truthteller8 6d ago

It's unfortunate, but employers have the leverage since they know people have bills to pay and the desperation to have some money to pay them will get someone to accept a job offer with cruddy wages.

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u/cowardly_lying 6d ago

That is true up to a point. I takes so much time and money to hire a new person, if they quit before 3 months, the company takes a huge hit.

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u/Megalocerus 6d ago

Job ads I've seen have not had any shortage of applications. At least 80% do not seem to have any hope of qualifying for the position; they may just be satisfying the state unemployment board.

Then again HR is apt to post an application with obsolete or unnecessary requirements. I'm not sure if this is poor communication, or if the director wants to be able to defend that any particular candidate is unqualified.

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u/seavictory 6d ago

Then again HR is apt to post an application with obsolete or unnecessary requirements. I'm not sure if this is poor communication, or if the director wants to be able to defend that any particular candidate is unqualified.

I dunno about other fields/countries, but US tech companies all post bullshit job postings that no one will be qualified for to meet legal requirements for hiring/sponsoring non-citizens because "we couldn't find an American who has the skills we need."

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u/2punornot2pun 6d ago

I know sometimes they'll "post" a job and then hire the manager's niece.

What they posted, how long it was posted, what it read as... complete mystery.

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u/salty_ann 6d ago

Sometimes they will call in applicants to prove due diligence. I was dicked around by a company with three interviews and all the hires were ‘internal’.

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u/silverpixiefly 6d ago

Yes and no. They then complain no one qualified is applying. The appropriate departments bitch to HR that the candidates aren't of any value. Corporate is miffed they can't retain employees.

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u/almostamishmafia 6d ago

How else will they claim there are no canidates and petition for an H1B?

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u/Asshole_with_facts 6d ago

This. As a financial analyst with a work history in fortune 500 companies, this is a big reason. Sr. Infrastructure software engineer with 8 years experience, but we're only offering 50k. No takers? Guess we have to reach out to our Pune office...

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u/RONINY0JIMBO 6d ago

We must work for the same company...

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u/HoneyBadger-DGAF 6d ago

I made this as a deeper level comment elsewhere, but it seems relevant here:

The industry as a whole absolutely underpays H1Bs, and this suppresses wages for everyone, you included.
https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2015/05/economists-h-1b-visas-suppress-wages

https://qz.com/india/1268241/h-1b-visa-abuse-a-california-company-promised-its-foreign-workers-8000-and-paid-them-800/

https://www3.nd.edu/~kdoran/Doran_Visas.pdf

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-new-look-at-the-h-1b-visa-programs-impact-on-american-workers-1489483811

https://fortune.com/2017/02/15/h1-b-silicon-valley-wages/

https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/

https://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Intel/267260_Review.htm

https://h1b-abuse.weebly.com/corp-to-corp.html

https://www.thelayoff.com/t/M8idFmO

https://www.cio.com/article/3401147/5-shocking-examples-of-h-1b-visa-program-abuse.html

https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/at-work/tech-careers/migrant-tech-workers-abused-by-contract-labor-firms-investigation-shows

Even the left leaning Economic Policy Institute agrees:

https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/

If tech companies paid prevailing wage for H1Bs they would not have been so vehemently opposed to Trump administration's increasing of the H1B salary requirements, which would have brought them inline with the industry average. The top salary mentioned in this article is a bit of FUD, that doesn't really represent the increases.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tech-startups-say-new-pay-rules-for-h-1b-visas-are-unaffordable-11604246400
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/11/04/h-1b-visa-bay-area-tech-giants-fight-new-trump-administration-rules/

This isn't a new problem, its not like it started in the past four years. This has been
going on for some time now:

https://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/proof-that-h-1b-visa-abuse-is-rampant-in-tech.html

"However, if a company pays a worker $60,000 or more, those rules do not apply. That, says Hira, is why so many outsourcers pay salaries that are very close to the threshold. Indeed, Infosys pays more than 600 of its workers exactly $60,000 a year, and Wipro pays that amount to 500 of its workers, he found when he analyzed the data. It's hardly a coincidence.

In the case of Disney, the IT workers were supplied by HCL America, a branch of a large, India-based outsourcer. HCL obtained 1,024 H-1B visas in 2013, and it pays those workers a median salary of $67,350, according to the data obtained by Hira from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. Although $67,000 is hardly poverty level, it's a fraction of prevailing wages across the IT industry. "

Absolute fraud. I could go on, but I am sure most won't even get through this list.

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u/itsprobablytrue 6d ago

That's a wall of text. Simple explanation here.

Costs less to pull a guy from India and rotate him for someone else every year.

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u/HoneyBadger-DGAF 6d ago

Wall of citations for the people who deny that it depresses wages.

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u/cowboomboom 6d ago

Lol I actually seen this first hand. I worked in a regional office of a large company and one day I saw a job post printed on a sheet of paper taped to the message board in our break room that’s poorly described and of course no salary range. The job sounds remarkably similar to the job of one of my coworkers. I asked him about it turns out he was on a TN visa and company had agreed to apply H1B for him. Part of process is that they had to advertise his job publicly for some period of time. So of course to insure no one actually apply for the job, they printed out some terrible job description and stable it on to the message board with no HR contact and no salary info.

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u/Arkainso 6d ago

Applying for jobs is one of the most depressing things you have to do in your life. Even if you are a qualified/ overall good candidate you still need to basically lie/ bullshit about how amazing the company is and how their values and what they do just magically fucking aligns with you as a person when the truth of it is that you barely kind of know what they do because there is no way of knowing until you have actually worked there. You basically have to suck their dick and when all of that is said and done they don't tell you how much they are actually gonna give you until it's too late and you realize you are gonna spend the next 5 years in borderline poverty.

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u/voiceafx 6d ago edited 6d ago

So how should employers do it right?

I'm hiring right now. Entry level job doing warehouse work, starts at $20 / hr. Less than a day after posting the position, we have 17 applicants.

What can I do to make the application experience a positive one?

EDIT: autocorrect fixes

EDIT 2: thanks for the recommendations! Starting phone interviews today and your insights are helpful!

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u/flerpaderps 6d ago

Don't include "What makes you want to work for [Company]?" in the interview. Unless you're some sort of prominent name in the industry, the only reason they want to work there is for money.

btw $20/hr for a warehouse gig is legit...

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u/BleachedWhale 6d ago

Get back to them with information on how the process is going.

Don't just ghost everyone who didn't get the job. It's unprofessional and rude as fuck :(

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u/Kaizenno 6d ago

Don't require them to fill something out after typing it. Print their online application or resume and file that...

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u/lazilyloaded 6d ago

It's a mutual blowjob. You have to pretend it's a great company and they have to pretend you're not going to be just another drone like the rest of their employees.

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u/visionsofblue 6d ago

I'd almost rather be their new drone if the pay is good and they leave me the fuck alone to do my job and go home on time.

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u/enchantrem 6d ago

LOL imagine trying to recruit someone new at today's prevailing wage and letting all your current employees know they're being underpaid

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u/SgtDoughnut 6d ago

Had the reverse situation, they were looking to hire on a new person to the same job I was doing, but paying around 8 per hour more.

Saw it, called my manager and asked if myself and my other co-worker could apply for the new job because of the pay raise....suddenly a bunch of meetings were held, and we both got a raise...only to be let go 3 months later leaving only the new guy there (who was horrid at the job)

Became rather obvious they were trying to sneak the new guy in because he was a friend of the CIO, and got busted.

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u/johnsonrod 6d ago

Became rather obvious they were trying to sneak the new guy in because he was a friend of the CIO

But then why did they post such a high pay in the job listing? If they were trying to be sneaky about it, couldn't they have posted regular pay and then just discreetly given him the higher pay once they hired him?

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u/SgtDoughnut 6d ago

Was at a community college, and they have to follow very specific rules to hire anyone, one of those rules is that all job postings must be public and list wages.

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u/enchantrem 6d ago

They probably had to put together a job listing that met certain standards per company policy and figured they could filter out their preferred candidate later in the process

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u/Primantieq 6d ago

Ive spent my career working in staffing. I cannot tell you how many times we tell clients this isn't enough to permanently fill these positions or we need more money to find someone and they say "but the problem is we have people who have been here for 10 years making less than that." It takes everything in me to not explain the rationale is completely unethical.

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u/Nisas 6d ago

And how can you trick the new guy into being underpaid if you tell him what he's worth up front?

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u/DetectiveClownMD 6d ago

Ah yes nothing was a fun as graduating into 2008 crash, getting a job after 9 months of searching, getting promoted twice in two years.

Then making friends with a person who took your old position and find out their starting pay is what you make now 2 places above them.

Then when you ask for more they say it cant be done. So glad I left that place.

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u/unmotivatedbacklight 6d ago

That's why any time a new person is hired in your department, you should go to your boss and ask for a raise.

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u/Seneca1904 6d ago

Wife is a Senior Administrator at a large contractor, makes 70k a year. Recently applied at a very large claims insurance company. I about died laughing when then asked her to come interview. Entery level claims assistant. Requirements: bachelor or higher in education, credit score of 680 or higher, debit to income lower then 30%. And the kicker, starting salary 15.60 a hour. 32 hour work week. Required to work up to 10 hours a day as a "alternate" work schedule (excludes overtime pay). 30 caseload per day

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u/_whythefucknot_ 6d ago

Wtf

What the fuck does a credit score and debt have to do with getting a job.

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u/56Giants 6d ago

If you're working with sensitive information. If you're up to your eyeballs in debt you're more likely to be bribed or compromised. It only applies to certain jobs.

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u/D_J-ANGO 6d ago

I learned this earning my expensive ass degree.

My employer that normally hired people without degrees said they wanted to see what I would bring to the table with the degree.

I said show realistic salary ranges.

They said no.

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u/Danktizzle 6d ago

They don’t want you. They want what you can give. For as cheap as possible.

We are only meant to be cells in the body of the corporation, easily sluffed and replaced when our usefulness is, well, meh.

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u/theangryintern 6d ago

One thing I like about working in the Public Sector. Accurate salary range was posted in the job description. I can go on our website and see the current salary range for any position in the organization.

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u/LastDawnOfMan 6d ago

I was led to understand that a big driver behind the huge number of incompetent job postings is that the company doesn't actually want to hire people from their home country, but need to look like they made an effort to hire domestic employees. So they post terrible job listings, with things like entry level jobs asking for 60 years job experience on a product that has only existed for 2 years. Because they don't want anyone to respond, and will use that as an excuse to bring people in from third world countries who will work for less.

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u/Typical_Samaritan 6d ago

People. Reddit family. Allow a slightly older man to give you some advice.

Apply to those positions.

Y'all are missing out on potentially a lot of money for really silly reasons.

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u/2punornot2pun 6d ago

I talked with a Boomer who was looking for work to get some extra income in his retirement.

He did electrical work in the air force and Ford (GM? I forget).

He did the interview. They offered the position with the salary. He looked at them, and said, "Are you out of your damn minds?" and told them good luck finding someone to work for so little.

He was insulted, but he did say he felt sorry for my generation.

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u/AuditorTux 6d ago

They offered the position with the salary. He looked at them, and said, "Are you out of your damn minds?" and told them good luck finding someone to work for so little.

I have experience in this - since COVID I've been doing straight consulting for businesses in getting their teams ready to handle accrual-basis accounting and even audits. You'd be surprised how often these small businesses have no idea what a good accountant can cost.

I had one who told me he was trying to hire an accounting in DFW for $45k. I laughed at him and said you'd struggle to get a decent bookkeeper for that price. I said he needed a Senior-level person (to run this and eventually become manager) and that he needed to start at least $75k and be prepared to go to $100k when he was ready to be a manager.

He balked. This was in November. Four months later, I hear they're still looking for an accountant. Sometimes they need to be shown what it costs to get a good person.

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u/Sleezroy 6d ago

I got laid off due to covid and now they are trying to hire someone to fit the role I created.

I started at 40k and left at 95k. Oh you can’t find someone to do what I did for 40k? Isn’t that crazy.....

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u/garretble 6d ago

“I feel sorry for your generation after all the shit my generation did to make your generation bad.”

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u/mackenzieb123 6d ago

This. If you ask for too much, but they want to interview you, they will usually let you know before they schedule the interview to see if you are still interested. Always put a salary number higher than you would actually accept. This is haggling. It does not scare potential employers away.

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u/CarbonTrebles 6d ago edited 6d ago

Going up 10-20% is good, but don't ask for a super-high salary. If asking way too much, the company could just stop communicating and then it's up to you to say "wait, don't leave, I'll take less!" and then either your bargaining leverage is gone or the job opportunity is gone. Source: I have seen the behind-the-scenes process for engineering jobs at the company where I work.

EDIT: clarified the first sentence.

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u/Diggy696 6d ago

The corollary to this - if youre happy in a role, screw it, throw out high numbers.

I was a well paid individual contributor, and get reached out by recruiters every so often. I always say - sure, I'll leave for 20% more than what I make right now. Most folks say no, way too high, but if some orgs have a need that needs to be met, it's worth it.

Now making 20% more in a new role than what I was when I was already paid above market rate.

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u/MsLuciferM 6d ago

Definitely do this. That’s how I got my job. I was working somewhere that I liked but didn’t pay well. Decided to take a punt, asked for what I thought was a ridiculous pay increase and got the job with the pay increase and a company car. I was so shocked I nearly fell off my chair when I got the call.

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u/LordLamorak 6d ago

That's often the issue I see, people wait to apply for new jobs until they are unhappy, or have to leave immediately. You should make it a point of applying for a new job every quarter or so, even if you don't want to take it. It really keeps you sharp on the interviewing process, lets you know your market worth for your job, and occasionally informs you when you are ready to make a leap up another rung in your career. If you don't need the job you're also willing to push it a bit and see what a company would truly offer you for your time. I managed to get a 35% salary increase this year and twice the paid time off, doing essentially the same job for another company who needed my experience.

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u/IvivAitylin 6d ago

You should make it a point of applying for a new job every quarter or so, even if you don't want to take it.

I don't know what field you're in, but that seems far too frequent for any sort of field where you would be able to negotiate pay increases. Seems like you would build up a reputation fairly quickly with any reasonably sized companies.

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u/mppk123 6d ago

I’m also in engineering, I wish there was a lecture or two in that 4 year degree on salary negotiations and reading between the lines of the necessary evil that are recruitment agent posts. Maybe one on what sort of salary to expect for general vs specialist job role. A major issue with engineering in the uk is the wage is kept low because engineers aren’t necessarily good negotiators, and a lot of good engineers are lost to other career paths because of the crappy wage.

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u/Questionoverhere 6d ago

Come to the US, we pay pretty well for Engineers and negotiating is more than acceptable.

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u/lazrbeam 6d ago

I got an offer recently, but wanted to negotiate the salary. I asked for a range well above what was offered thinking they would counter offer. They told me to go fuck myself.

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u/Walbeb24 6d ago

I once had an offer and I only wanted around 3k more a year which is fucking peanuts but it would have been a small raise for me.

They pretty much drew a line and the sand and tried to convince me all the other benefits and shit was worth it. I will not work for a company that fights tooth and nail over a tiny bit of money.

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u/ansteve1 6d ago

Apply to those positions.

But keep your guard up. I have had bait and switch with these types of postings.

"What silly you this position is not full time. It is part time when ever we feel like having you come in."

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u/Kuandtity 6d ago

Yeah I applied for one and am now being compensated at a fairly good rate

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u/meester_pink 6d ago

While true, it is also true that salary secrecy culture is bullshit and only benefits employers, and we should all be working toward, demanding and participating in salary transparency.

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u/Luckydemon 6d ago edited 6d ago

This is the best advice in my opinion. I always apply at jobs that fit my skills and experience even if they don’t list the salary or if the salary is lower than I expected. If I get called, great, I ask them salary “as to not waste either of our time” as one of if not my opening question.

In your range, great, not in your range end the call. Now the recruiter knows what someone with your experience, they obviously liked something if they called you, isn’t going even going to talk to you about your role with that low of pay. They may revise their pay scale and they may call you back, it’s happened to me before.

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u/AtlUtdGold 6d ago

Is it like when they don’t put the price on the brochure because it’s really high?

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u/Bunker-babyboi 6d ago

I commented on one earlier today that was about Waste Management in my home town. The poster had "Make up to 22$ an hour", and then at the bottom it says "Positions make up to 19$ an hour!". How can you have confidence in a job, when they can't figure it out?

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u/Toph-Builds-the-fire 6d ago

I once got told in a post interview (didn't get it, but I usually email to find out "why") that I was too concerned with compensation. Oh, I'm sorry I have a basic expectation for what my time is worth.

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u/Pavix 6d ago

But how else are they going to get people with 4 years of vbscripting andpowershell scripting experience, sysadmin experience with windows and Linux, and CCNA certified people to apply for jobs starting at $14/hr?

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u/Jristz 6d ago

From countries with even lower minimum wage than the USA minimum wage

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u/Pavix 6d ago

Oh, I forgot. If a company can demonstrate that they tried in earnest to get a candidate in the US then they can outsource. So they require a Bachelors degree, CCNA, RHSA, Security+ and Network+ for the posting in the US starting at $14 and after 3 months of not getting a single bite they go straight to the H1B pool

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u/Shirasho 6d ago

This applies to recruiters who say "my client". I am never going to apply if you do not say upfront who you are recruiting for. I have signed non-compete agreements. I am not going to waste my time.

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u/jermslice 6d ago

I was put through 3 interviews in a high stress mid level position, only to be offered well below the national average of pay. So frustrating.

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u/Nardelan 6d ago

I left a high level retail job to be self employed. I was making about $75k. I still left my resume on LinkedIn and indeed for options.

I got a call one day asking to interview for a management position at a local company. I wasn’t really looking but I wanted to see what they had to offer.

I went through the whole interview and screening process and made it to the point where they offered me a job. Starting pay.....$13/hr. ($27k).

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